Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Deathleaper has a special rule where enemy models can only ever snap at him/her/it. So, if I've got DA and I'm charged by Deathleaper, do I overwatch at fixed BS2 as per my Grim Resolve rule, or do snap at Death Leaper as per his rules? Been a bit unclear if the Grim Resolve overrides the snap effect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Tickle fight to determine who is dominant, then go with that person's ruling. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 DA units firing Overwatch still are making Snap Shots- however, due to their own special rules those Snap Shots are at BS2, 3, or full BS (depending.) Deathleaper's ability will not have any effect when assaulting a unit with Grim Resolve. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 DA units firing Overwatch still are making Snap Shots- however, due to their own special rules those Snap Shots are at BS2, 3, or full BS (depending.) Deathleaper's ability will not have any effect when assaulting a unit with Grim Resolve. Actually, the full BS one is even more iffy, as a unit subject to snap is BS1. Full bs while subject to snap should be BS1. As for the Grim Resolve rule, I've been very iffy on this, as it doesn't say it overrides snap specifically. It modifies the overwatch BS, yes, but it doesn't say it modifies the snap effect during overwatch, even if that's what it means when it says it modifies the overwatch BS. I still like Fluger's solution. That would be pretty awesome in a tournament.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Hello there, Main rule book for 7th edition, page 45, right side of page, their boldface type: "Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots (page 32). Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch." Main rule book for 7th edition, pages 32 and 33, center of book, their boldface type: "If a model is forced to make Snap Shots rather than shoot normally, then its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of those shots, unless it has a Ballistic Skill of 0 (in which case it may not shoot, as explained on page 9). The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots, then the Snap Shot is resolved at Ballistic Skill 1." Thus, I would think that regarding the Dark Angels' "Grim Resolve" and "Supreme Fire Discipline" special rules, the Ballistic Skill modifiers apply. Reasoning: if, according to the rule book that any shots fired as Overwatch are Snap Shots, but not all Snap Shots are fired in Overwatch, then the special rules that state modifiers to Ballistic Skill when firing Overwatch covers this. Two different categories presented: Overwatch vs. Snap Shots. But obviously since the Dark Angels' special rules don't specifically state "Snap Shots" there would be no Ballistic Skill modifiers for moving and shooting with a heavy weapon that is able to (i.e. snap shot), for example. I believe that the special rules' including the terminology "when firing Overwatch" keeps the two distinct: Ballistic Skill modifiers apply in Overwatch, but not for ALL snap shots (i.e. moving and shooting a heavy weapon that is able to). How I read it, at least. And obviously I don't have the experience with 7th edition that y'all do but seems clear to me. Stay safe, don 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Love it Dalmer, the answer is that Grim Resolve does nothing because it doesn't specifically modify snaps..... I know, you concluded something else and that's probably closer to what is intended. That's the second rather important rules issue within the current DA codex I've found (other one is that Ravenwing rule only being on sammy and sableclaw, despite implied access on other HQ slots). So, Dalmer, if rather than firing overwatch on a fixed BS of 2, the grim resolve rule is modified to fire overwatch on "full" BS (like via the lion's blade formation). Does a unit subject to snap fire overwatch on their full BS of 1 or on their Unmodified full BS? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Hello there, Again, I'm looking at two different categories of, for lack of a better term, "types of shots fired:" snap shots and overwatch, which are two wholly separate things. Related, sure... but not one in the same. SNAP SHOTS a. moving and shooting with a heavy weapon that can do so is one example b. firing Overwatch is another example OVERWATCH a. always fired as a snap shot b. certain weapons cannot do this Grim Resolve and Supreme Fire Discipline modify the latter, not the former. They specify that OVERWATCH is fired at modified Ballistic Skills. Not SNAP SHOTS. If their rules stated that SNAP SHOTS were what is being affected Ballistic Skill wise, then Dark Angels could fire ALL snap shots with modified Ballistic Skill and thus both categories above would be affected. But because OVERWATCH is stated, only the latter group in the two categories above is affected, not both. Not all snap shots are overwatch. Regarding the question you posed, I think you're merging the two terms. The blurb in the rule book about special rules modifying SNAP SHOTS is about the former category, not the latter. So Dark Angels can overwatch with modified Ballistic Skills (i.e. bonuses) but cannot move and shoot a lascannon with the same bonus. The special rule doesn't cover that. Stay safe, don 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Regarding the question you posed, I think you're merging the two terms. The blurb in the rule book about special rules modifying SNAP SHOTS is about the former category, not the latter. So Dark Angels can overwatch with modified Ballistic Skills (i.e. bonuses) but cannot move and shoot a lascannon with the same bonus. The special rule doesn't cover that. Stay safe, don Ah, I see the confusion. I'm not talking about modifying snaps outside of overwatch. Okay, target unit is subject to snapfire. For example a DA dreadnought is stunned. As per the snapfire rules, the dreadnought's shooting is considered BS1 which can only be modified by rules which specifically modify snap shots. Now, I charge the stunned dreadnought. That dreadnought is part of a lion's blade detachment with grim resolve and therefore overwatches at full BS. The dread is also subject to the snapfire rules from being stunned. The distinction is that Grim resolve modifies overwatch, but does not modify snapfire. Does the shooting resolve at Full BS, or at BS 1? Or is his full BS 1? Is the dread able to use Grim Resolve to ignore the fact that all his shooting snapfires as per being stunned? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I've kind of wondered about this sort of thing before, in regards to Jinking Units firing Templates on Overwatch, or using Templates on Overwatch against DeathLeaper or an Invisible Unit. Overwatch says you can, because it makes an exception, but there's also a requirement in play that you just fire Snap Shots, without that exception. Can't recall if I ever saw it sorted out or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Actually, the full BS one is even more iffy, as a unit subject to snap is BS1. Full bs while subject to snap should be BS1. As for the Grim Resolve rule, I've been very iffy on this, as it doesn't say it overrides snap specifically. It modifies the overwatch BS, yes, but it doesn't say it modifies the snap effect during overwatch, even if that's what it means when it says it modifies the overwatch BS. Not all Snap Shots are fired at BS1- while this is the default case, sometimes they can be at higher BS values if a rule specifies otherwise. For example, Tau can improve their BS on a Snap Shot using Markerlights, Renegades with the Devotion of Tzeentch fire Snap Shots at BS2, Cypher and the Eversor Assassin make full-BS Overwatch attacks, and units with Grim Resolve fire Snap Shots as part of Overwatch at BS2. However, even when they use a modified BS value (i.e.something other than BS1) these attacks are still Snap Shots and thus subject to the same rules- that means that weapons that do not roll to hit cannot fire (unless they have a special exception) and such shots can never be Precision Shots. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I've kind of wondered about this sort of thing before, in regards to Jinking Units firing Templates on Overwatch, or using Templates on Overwatch against DeathLeaper or an Invisible Unit. Overwatch says you can, because it makes an exception, but there's also a requirement in play that you just fire Snap Shots, without that exception. Can't recall if I ever saw it sorted out or not. Hadn't even considered that angle. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 and units with Grim Resolve fire Snap Shots as part of Overwatch at BS2. I keep hearing this one, but that is not what is written. Grim Resolve Models with this special rule have the stubborn special rule and, unless jinking, count their ballistic skill as 2 when firing Overwatch. It does not specify any modifications to the snapfire rule. Correct, it says to count their BS as 2 while firing overwatch, but it doesn't specify any modifications to snapfire. So I go back to the question regarding models subject to snapfire AND overwatch, like a charging deathleaper or stunned DA dreadnought receiving a charge, and if Grim Resolve would override the snapfire BS1. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 I keep hearing this one, but that is not what is written. It does not specify any modifications to the snapfire rule. Correct, it says to count their BS as 2 while firing overwatch, but it doesn't specify any modifications to snapfire. All shots fired during Overwatch are, by definition, Snap Shots. Making them BS2 (which is what Grim Resolve does) has no effect on this- for example, a blast weapon will still be unable to fire Overwatch when used by a Grim Resolve unit. Changing the Ballistic Skill used for a Snap Shot does not change whether or not it is a Snap Shot, otherwise the Dedication of Tzeentch would make no sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 Hello there, Regarding the model subject to snap fire AND overwatch: I would personally say that because the STUNNED effect came first, it overrides the other rule. Thus if you stunned my Dark Angels dreadnought in your shooting phase, according to page 76 of the rulebook I can only fire snap shots until the end of its next turn. Thus, following how I've personally been interpreting the rules means that I can only fire SNAP SHOTS and can't even overwatch on your charge. "Either the vehicle's crew is knocked about by the attack, or the vehicle's targeting and steering systems are temporarily scrambled." (page 76, rulebook) So you shoot me PEW PEW and KERBLAMMO something goes amiss with my dread's targeting system. I can't overwatch on your assault charge, but I can snap shot on my shooting phase. Since the word "snap shot" is written under stunned and not overwatch, my Dark Angels special rules don't help me. Again, just my way of looking at it because I keep snap shots (for me, shooting phase) and overwatch (for me, assault phase) completely separate in my head. And since your shooting effect came first, I lose overwatch. Now if you shot me and nothing happened I would overwatch your charging folks with all the Dark Angel-y goodness that I could muster. And if you stun me in the assault phase obviously that came after the overwatch was resolved so no effect *this* phase. Stay safe, don Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 All shots fired during Overwatch are, by definition, Snap Shots. Making them BS2 (which is what Grim Resolve does) has no effect on this- for example, a blast weapon will still be unable to fire Overwatch when used by a Grim Resolve unit. Changing the Ballistic Skill used for a Snap Shot does not change whether or not it is a Snap Shot, otherwise the Dedication of Tzeentch would make no sense. I'm not really sure what the "dedication of Tzeentch" is in rules. I do know in the BRB, it says that an ability which modifies snap shots during overwatch would specifically state it modified Overwatch Snap Shots. Not really sure why GW would omit their own term from the DA codex just to make it dysfunctional as written. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dalmer Posted September 21, 2015 Report Share Posted September 21, 2015 The Dark Angels' rules do not modify snap shots, they modify overwatch. Two different things. Overwatch is always snap shots, whilst snap shots are not always overwatch. Easier way to write what I was trying to say than all my prior stuff, sorry. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted September 22, 2015 Report Share Posted September 22, 2015 I'm not really sure what the "dedication of Tzeentch" is in rules. I do know in the BRB, it says that an ability which modifies snap shots during overwatch would specifically state it modified Overwatch Snap Shots. Not really sure why GW would omit their own term from the DA codex just to make it dysfunctional as written. I should more properly have been calling it Covenant of Tzeentch, which is the name of the rule; it's from the Renegades and Heretics army list in IA13. "Any unit which contains at least one model with this special rule makes all Snap Shots at BS2 instead of the usual BS1." Grim Resolve doesn't need to say it modifies Snap Shots because it says it modifies Overwatch- which by definition is a Snap Shot. The BRB rule is to clear up interactions like the Signum or other value-setting effects that could otherwise be interpreted as overriding the value-setting effect of Snap Shots, which is not their intended function. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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