Guest Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 Not sure exactly how word it, in 40k it would points per game. How many soul stones do players typically play at? Book doesn't directly say, just basically says between 20 and 50, and doesn't seem to support the idea of pre-built crews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 1, 2015 Report Share Posted October 1, 2015 The game has been balanced to play at 50ss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Can we still select a henchman leader at 50ss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Nope. There is a chart in the scenario section. Sorry I don't have my book on me to give you a page number. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 Nope. There is a chart in the scenario section. Sorry I don't have my book on me to give you a page number. I saw the chart, but the scenario section is pretty clear that we don't just play at 50ss, so if play is always 50ss, I figured they might make an exception. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 People like to play masters and they also generally like a balanced game, which means playing 50ss. Taking a henchman to lead your crew you'd certainly be at a disadvantage, and that's probably no fun for you or your opponent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 People like to play masters and they also generally like a balanced game, which means playing 50ss. Taking a henchman to lead your crew you'd certainly be at a disadvantage, and that's probably no fun for you or your opponent. Sake of argument, if I could get it to work, would you still be opposed? Is the issue one of balance, or is the principle of fielding a non-master leader at 50ss? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 It's a balance thing. The henchman leader would (should) be at a pretty severe disadvantage. If you came up to me at a game night and asked to run a henchman against my master in a 50ss game I'd be fine with it, might be fun to see what happens, but generally speaking you'd be at a severe disadvantage and if the game is a foregone conclusion it probably won't be the most interesting game. The best games are close right through to the bitter end! Less so the games that seem over by turn one to two... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 7, 2015 Report Share Posted October 7, 2015 That's fine, balance is a good reason. If I get a list good enough to try it, I'll try to get a game in with you. Would be fun to get it to work, if only to see it can be done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Might have to wait a while, I don't come down to Oregon that often. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think the trick here is just like any game. If you said to your opponent (in a non-event game) "Hey I'd like to try this...". They can say yes or no. For the most part, people I know are fine with trying stuff in any one off game, just talk to them first. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 I think the trick here is just like any game. If you said to your opponent (in a non-event game) "Hey I'd like to try this...". They can say yes or no. For the most part, people I know are fine with trying stuff in any one off game, just talk to them first. I get that. I'm just looking at the rules which seem to strongly imply that you can play henchmen as leaders in perfectly balanced lower SS games. Now Mach 5 says that those other SS levels can't really be played due to balance. Seems like we're already in the realm of house rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 The game is still enjoyable and mostly balanced at lower ss levels if you are henchman led. If you are playing with a master at 35ss then the balance can skew a little (summoning becomes even more powerful, for example). You will still probably have a fun game most of the time, though balance issues can burn you if people are trying to take advantage of that fact. Aside from using soul stones, there isn't much that makes most henchmen stand out from any other model. Masters have more character, way more options available to them, and really set the tone for how a crew plays. You don't get the full tactical depth of the game without them. Henchmen-led games are great for occasional story encounters, or add part of an ongoing series of linked missions. They're great for intro games to keep it simpler for new players. Most people prefer to play masters at 50ss because that is where the game is most balanced with the most tactical options available. Plus you get to put more toys on the table. Win-win, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 Plus you get to put more toys on the table. Win-win, no? So why would their be an issue with a Henchman leader at 50ss? Saying it's ill-advised seems reasonable, but banning seems unnecessary. If it's truly an issue of henchmen just being weaker, then allowing them as leaders shouldn't be an issue unless you are also banning the weaker masters.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted October 8, 2015 Report Share Posted October 8, 2015 So why would their be an issue with a Henchman leader at 50ss? Saying it's ill-advised seems reasonable, but banning seems unnecessary. If it's truly an issue of henchmen just being weaker, then allowing them as leaders shouldn't be an issue unless you are also banning the weaker masters.... Masters are balanced against each other. For the most part, assuming a decent crew build and baring taking the wrong master/crew for a scenario, all masters are about equal. Henchmen are significantly less powerful than masters. So basically, if you pit a henchmen agaisnt a master, the master will pretty much always win (baring some insane luck). Since the leader is free, taking a master for free is far more powerful then taking a henchmen for free. There are two main worries when choosing to under power your list like this. First off, you may not have a very fun game as your opponent just rolls you. Second is that your opponent won't have any fun rolling you. In general, there are probably better ways to spice up your game then giving yourself a handicap right out of the gate. P.S. Shifting Loyalties Campaigns start with Henchmen leaders and you eventually add a master. These games might lead to larger games with no master, but I am not familiar with the rules. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 So why would their be an issue with a Henchman leader at 50ss? Saying it's ill-advised seems reasonable, but banning seems unnecessary. If it's truly an issue of henchmen just being weaker, then allowing them as leaders shouldn't be an issue unless you are also banning the weaker masters.... There isn't really an issue if both players play henchmen, but most people want to play a master as it's more interesting/fun/characterful. Masters can massively affect the way a crew plays and makes the game more interesting. Joss leading spiders is kinda meh, but Ramos leading joss with spiders is awesome! So yeah, you could play henchmen vs henchmen at 50ss and it would be balanced enough, but not as interesting of a game as Malifaux is designed to be. As most people prefer to lead with a master you're left trying to play henchman vs master in which you'll be at a distinct disadvantage, and that isn't usually that fun for either player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 So yeah, you could play henchmen vs henchmen at 50ss and it would be balanced enough, but not as interesting of a game as Malifaux is designed to be. As most people prefer to lead with a master you're left trying to play henchman vs master in which you'll be at a distinct disadvantage, and that isn't usually that fun for either player. First, I don't think playing with a handicap is inherently no fun for either player. I really wish you'd stop assuming that a player being at a disadvantage would automatically mean the game wasn't fun. Second, I don't see a huge disadvantage for the henchmen. It would certainly depend on the crew, but it seems like a henchman leader is mainly disadvantaged in the 1 less free AP per turn and 1 less upgrade. On the flip side, most henchmen have a rather large soulstone cashe. And besides, this game doesn't pit crew vs crew in straight combat, it's all about getting the mission objectives. Loss of the leader doesn't mean loss of the game. I don't think a henchman (or henchwoman) leader is automatically disadvantaged, as I think this game is more about models working together than it is about what any one model brings to the table. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dkieft Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Most players prefer a balanced game. That is not to say an unbalanced game is never fun, especially if playing out a scenario or whatever. Really, you can play the game anyway you want as long as your opponent agrees. But playing a Henchmen in larger games is not allowed by the base rules so it pretty much is an "opponents permission" thing. The power difference between Masters and Henchmen are pretty big for the most part. Both models are free with a rebate, and while the rebate does somewhat indicate the base power level of the model the soul stone difference is not equivalent. A weaker master (with a cache of 3) is not 3 SS more powerful than a henchmen with a 6 cache. That 3 SS difference between master and Henchmen is probably more like a 6-10 SS difference in in-game abilities. Masters tend to be a lot more dangerous, way harder to kill, have more and cooler abilities AND an extra AP. This isn't to say it is an auto lose to take a henchmen either, and that will heavily depend on match up, scenario, player skill and FATE! Honestly though, if you are really dead set on playing a henchmen as lead, just play some smaller games... I think you can still take them at 30 or 35 Stones... it puts on a decent game at that level. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 9, 2015 Report Share Posted October 9, 2015 Have to agree to disagree then. It's more than just an extra AP and an extra upgrade slot that make masters more powerful. Their abilities are designed to be significantly more powerful. You might also notice that the henchmen all have a total Cost+Cache=13, so the better the henchman the smaller the cache. If you tried to give any master a fair cost in ss, you'd have to go higher than the most expensive henchmen (more than 13ss) plus they still have a cache while a 13ss henchman has 0 cache. It could be a fun game, and like I said I'd be happy to have said game for a laugh, but personally I'd prefer to strive for a balanced fight, and to me it seems like that game would typically be skewed in favour of the Master-led crew. By all means, try it out. Maybe you win some games, maybe you could prove me wrong? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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