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Multiple psykers casting multiple of same spell question


peter.cosgrove

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Yesterday was in a tournament where the rules person available stated that multiple psykers in a unit couldn't cast multiples of the same spell. 

 

I had a command squad (elite) that was joined by Tigurius (hq/ic) and 4 other librarians (hq/ic) from 2 other factions/detachments.

 

I had cast 1 psychic shriek from one of the librarians. When I attempted to cast a 2nd psychic shriek from one of the other 3 librarians I was told that the unit could only cast 1 of a psychic power. As per pg 24 BRB "No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase"

 

The ruling was based on the joining of the separate IC librarians to the command squad becoming part of the unit therefore the command squad and 5 librarians are a single unit and a single unit can attempt to manifest more than one of the same psychic powers more than once per turn.

 

Please note, this was not a Librarian Conclave.

 

This was a weekly paid tournament at a local venue that is a consistent place for me to play so I am not comfortable continuing in the tournament unless this issue is resolved.

 

My contact information.

 

Peter Cosgrove

11921 SE Bush St

Portland, OR 97266

503-805-5499

harlequin_corps@yahoo.com

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They are using the ITC errata I would imagine.  They explicitly clarify the rule in this case.  

 

Second point in the Psychic phase of that document:  

 

 

 

Multiple psykers that are part of the same unit cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power during a single psychic phase.

 

I'm inclined to agree with this ruling as ICs that join units become a single unit, so, it's not a stretch to see how that ruling could be made.  

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so the BRB states "For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker" and "Psyker unit" refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhoos of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules"

 

And...

 

"unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rule's are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the IC's special rules are not conferred upon the unit"

 

So are you guys saying that having Psykers in a unit of non Psykers confers Brotherhood of Psykers or something like that to the non-Psykers? So if I take a Perils of the Warp I can have that wound allocated to a member of the unit they have joined?

 

Because the whole sentence is "Assuming you have enough warp charge points, you can alternate between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psyker power more than once per psychic phase" 

 

This would mean that an IC joining a non-psyker unit, in order for the limitation of the term "unit" being applied to the unit as a whole would have to confer Brotherhood of Psyker or some such for the Unit to be termed a Psyker Unit and attempting the manifest the same psyker power.

 

So if the unit as a whole entity is one Psychic Unit I can put a perils of the warp wound anywhere in the unit.

 

for example.."Mental Purge: The Psyker suffers 1 wound..."

and "For the purposes of all rules the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the psyker..."

and "no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power..."

 

So if 3 psyker IC's join a unit and that unit is considered a whole 1 psyker unit for recasting then it's one psyker unit as well for wounds.

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Simply put, when ICs join a unit, it becomes one unit.  The BRB states ""No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase"

 

Because they are one unit (as per the rules of ICs joining units), then it stands that they can only cast the same power once per psychic phase.  

 

This isn't a question of the unit gaining different statuses (psyker/brotherhood/etc), it's simply that for the purposes of most things, the IC and the unit are considered a single unit, and a unit can only cast the same power once.  

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I don't like the rule and feel like multiple Librarians attached to the same unit should be able to cast the same power - However, Fluger's conclusion agrees with my own based on rules as written.

 

The Screamer Star was already nerfed by ITC's 2+ re-rollable save ruling. This is just another nail in the coffin of a dead 6th ed power list.

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The faction really screwed over by this one is the Grey Knights, as they can only attempt Hammerhand, Banishment, and Force once per unit, despite every unit and IC having at least one of these powers and most of their units having them from multiple sources.

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The BRB doesn't say that. Not like that.

 

The BRB says "Assuming you have enough warp charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase"

 

It is one complete sentence. The sentence does not begin "No unit can attempt... etc." 

 

the BRB also states that Psyker unit refers to any unit with the psyker, psychic pilot, or brotherhood of sorcerer special rules. 

 

And how would that work for say... A thousand son's aspiring sorcerer with Bolt and Ahriman with Bolt in the same squad. Can I cast the AS bolt and then the Ahriman bolt 3x? for a total of 4x bolts? Or if I cast the AS bolt does it disallow the Ahriman bolt 3x? Or does it mean the AS bolt counts as one of Ahriman's 3x bolts? Or do I have to use Ahriman's special ability first for 3x bolts and THEN cast the 4th AS bolt as a normal Psyker unit.

 

Ahriman's errata from GW.."It allows Ahriman to manifest the same witchfire power up to three times per psychic phase" 

 

Note that it doesn't say Ahriman's unit... or Psyker.. It specifically states Ahriman. 

 

And Finally, if the Unit is now considered a psyker unit can I cast beam weapons from the base of any of the models? Instead of the actual Psyker model? since a Psyker IC joining a non Psyker unit is conferring Psyker Unit status to the unit as a whole.

 

And how are Nova's measured then. If a Nova is a 6" cast then it's now considered range 6" from the bases of any or all the models in the unit since the unit is now considered a whole psyker?

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Well, after burrowing into the rules I notice that Force "is a blessing psychic power that targets the Psyker and his unit, all of the target's weapons that have the Force special rule gain the Instant Death...etc"

 

So if a Psyker joining a unit with other psykers was already considered to make them all one uber psyker unit then why would they need to say "His unit" 

 

Wouldn't that already be part of the IC joining the unit making them a psychic unit redundant?

 

And B. Oh hey.. check that out.. I no longer have to cast force 5 times. cool.

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Well, after burrowing into the rules I notice that Force "is a blessing psychic power that targets the Psyker and his unit, all of the target's weapons that have the Force special rule gain the Instant Death...etc"

 

So if a Psyker joining a unit with other psykers was already considered to make them all one uber psyker unit then why would they need to say "His unit" 

 

Wouldn't that already be part of the IC joining the unit making them a psychic unit redundant?

 

And B. Oh hey.. check that out.. I no longer have to cast force 5 times. cool.

 

Hey, in the ITC league, we use the ITC rulings on this stuff. As Fluger linked in the first response to the OP, the ITC has ruled that if your IC psykers all join one unit, then that unit can only do a power once. Trying to find things in the rules to undermine that isn't relevant. The format of the league is what makes it this way.

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I don't like the ITC interpretation (because I think it creates some other issues that most people just pretend aren't there), but it is the commonly-accepted one. The guy didn't pull one over on you, he was just playing by the most common ruling.

 

This.

 

If you have an issue with an ITC ruling, send in a request to change the ruling.  If they get enough requests, it'll be put up for a vote and the community can decide.  

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Yes, I'm aware of what the FAQ says, but since I'm not Commander in Chief of the ITC nor the organizer of your tournament, I can't give you any kind of official and concrete answer. As usual, you'll want to ask whoever is running the tournament how they will handle the matter, since very little else actually matters.

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http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/Errata/Warhammer_40000/Chaos_Space_Marines_EN.pdf

 

Amendments

Page 60 - The Black Staff of Ahriman, rules. The second sentence should be replaced with: 'It allows Ahriman to attempt to manifest the same witchfire power up to 3 times per Psychic Phase'.

 

It lets him manifest the same up to 3 times.  However, I would say the rules wouldn't allow him to cast Bolt at all if you have the AS Cast it, because two psykers in a unit can't cast the same spell.  Amirite?

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Ok, so.. OrdoFanaticus is running a 40k Ladder League using the ITC rules.. So I will ask the question again..

 

Is OrdoFanaticus saying that the ITC rules for Psychics apply to the OrdoFanaticus 40k Ladder League. And if that's the case then how does it apply specifically to having two casters, one of which is Ahriman (who's special ability is specifically FAQ'ed by Games Workshop to state that Ahriman can cast the same spell up to 3 times, cast the same spell.

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It lets him manifest the same up to 3 times.  However, I would say the rules wouldn't allow him to cast Bolt at all if you have the AS Cast it, because two psykers in a unit can't cast the same spell.  Amirite?

 

I don't think so- it's not that two psykers can't cast the spell, it's that a single unit can't cast the same spell more than once. So if you manifested Bolt with Ahriman first, the Sorcerer would be unable to cast it (because he does not have a special rule that permits otherwise.) However, if you manifested with the Sorcerer first, Ahriman would still be allowed to manifest it up to two more times because of his own special rules.

 

As I said, though, this is largely speculative, since I don't think I've ever seen the question come up before in ITC.

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Ok, so.. OrdoFanaticus is running a 40k Ladder League using the ITC rules.. So I will ask the question again..

 

Is OrdoFanaticus saying that the ITC rules for Psychics apply to the OrdoFanaticus 40k Ladder League. And if that's the case then how does it apply specifically to having two casters, one of which is Ahriman (who's special ability is specifically FAQ'ed by Games Workshop to state that Ahriman can cast the same spell up to 3 times, cast the same spell.

If this is a Ladder League question, you need to ask the individual organizing it. I was under the impression you were asking regarding an ITC-based event.

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