Multiple psykers casting multiple of same spell question

[peter.cosgrove]

Well, two things. 

 

First, by everything I have been able to read on Frontline Gaming's forums, the one cast per unit rule was based on the perceived need to nerf psychic based lists. They were looking at things like limiting the number of psychic dice, banning certain psychic powers, or limiting the use of powers to one time per psychic phase, and in fact banning any ability that brought units onto the board outside the original points cost. What they settled with was this one time per unit thing and changing Invisibility to BS/WS1 modifiable.

 

And that's it is it? Is it really that bad that you have to screw someone over who likes a certain play style that is perfectly legitimate according to the base rulesets? 

 

Second. The rule of "one cast per unit" is a case of failed English comprehension.

 

The BRB states...

"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker (pg 170), Psychic Pilot (pg 170) or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers (pg 159) special rules.'

and...

"Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way but no unit can attempt to manifest the same Psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase"

 

So unless someone is saying that a Space Marine Command Squad is NOW a psyker unit and having the Psyker (pg 170), Psychic Pilot (pg 170) or Brotherhood of Psyker's/Sorcerers (pg 159) special rules, then unfortunately no the 2 Librarian (Psyker [pg 170]) that join the Space Marine Command Squad does not turn the entire unit into a unit capable of manifesting psychic powers more than once per psychic phase.

 

Because the only way that the Space Marine Command Squad could count as a unit capable of manifesting the same Psychic power more than once per Psychic Phase is if either the Space Marine Command Squad is considered to have the Psyker Special Rule "For the Purposes of All rules the Term Psyker or Psyker unit..." and then IF and ONLY IF the IC joining the Space Marine Command Squad conferred the Special Rule "Psyker/Psychic Pilot/Brotherhood of Psykers" onto the Space Marine Command Squad which is directly contraindicated on pg 166 Independent Character "When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself, the unit's special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character's special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

 

Psyker/Psychic Pilot/Brotherhood of Psykers is a special rule. How is an IC with this special rule that joins a Space Marine Command Squad conferring the Psyker special rule to the Space Marine Command Squad to such a fashion that the Space Marine Command Squad is now considered a unit capable of manifesting a psychic power?

 

Especially since each one of those special rules states...

Psyker "A Model with this special rule is a Psyker...."

Psychic Pilot "A Vehicle with this special rule is a Psyker..."

Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers "A unit containing at least one model with THIS SPECIAL RULE [please note. Not Psyker... Not Psychic Pilot) is a Psyker Unit...

 

The special rules specifies Model... not unit.. the only Unit designation is specifically for Brotherhood units. Does a Librarian have Brotherhood of Psykers Special rule... no it doesn't. A Librarian in either Power Armor/Terminator Armor/Bike is a MODEL and the model is a psyker.

 

There is nothing in the BRB or the GW FAQ that indicates that 2 or more librarians joining a squad as IC's makes the whole squad one single psyker unit for the purposes of manifesting psychic powers.

 

If you want to hide behind "oh well, it's just ITC" fine.. do that, but you should be ashamed of yourself because the gaming store Frontline Gaming wanted to nerf certain types of armies when they wrote that rule.

 

But if you want to use the basic rules for it then you need to go back and actually read the rules.

[Guest]

Your original post was this:

 

 

 

Yesterday was in a tournament where the rules person available stated that multiple psykers in a unit couldn't cast multiples of the same spell. 

 

I had a command squad (elite) that was joined by Tigurius (hq/ic) and 4 other librarians (hq/ic) from 2 other factions/detachments.

 

I had cast 1 psychic shriek from one of the librarians. When I attempted to cast a 2nd psychic shriek from one of the other 3 librarians I was told that the unit could only cast 1 of a psychic power. As per pg 24 BRB "No unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase"

 

The ruling was based on the joining of the separate IC librarians to the command squad becoming part of the unit therefore the command squad and 5 librarians are a single unit and a single unit can attempt to manifest more than one of the same psychic powers more than once per turn.

 

Please note, this was not a Librarian Conclave.

 

This was a weekly paid tournament at a local venue that is a consistent place for me to play so I am not comfortable continuing in the tournament unless this issue is resolved.

 

We suggested that maybe they are using the ITC's interpretation.

 

If you want to hide behind "oh well, it's just ITC" fine.. do that, but you should be ashamed of yourself because the gaming store Frontline Gaming wanted to nerf certain types of armies when they wrote that rule.

Most on the boards know, I despise the ITC. That said, your question was asking why an opponent would come to this conclusion - that is what I'm trying to address.

 

If you don't like it, I strongly suggest not doing an ITC event in the future. And especially, I suggest knowing the ITC rules in advance, should you attend one of their events.

 

Now, if the local event isn't using ITC, then tell us, as you've been very vague as to the circumstances that a ruling was made.

[indytims]

There is nothing in the BRB or the GW FAQ that indicates that 2 or more librarians joining a squad as IC's makes the whole squad one single psyker unit for the purposes of manifesting psychic powers.

 

If you want to hide behind "oh well, it's just ITC" fine.. do that, but you should be ashamed of yourself because the gaming store Frontline Gaming wanted to nerf certain types of armies when they wrote that rule.

 

But if you want to use the basic rules for it then you need to go back and actually read the rules.

 

It may not make the entire unit (the whole squad) a single psyker - but they are still a 'unit', as indicated on pg 166. "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes...".

 

The IC (or ICs) become part of that unit.

 

Pg 24, A 'unit' can not cast the same psyker power more than once a turn.

 

What am I missing here?

 

And I don't think anyone is 'hiding' behind anything, nor do I see any reason for anyone who has been trying to -help- you, to feel 'ashamed'. You came and asked for thoughts, opinions, etc, and you got them. Not liking the answer you got really doesn't justify your aggression and borderline d-bag attitude. As AP has said now a few times - check with the person organizing the event you're in. They're the ultimate decider - not any of us. If you don't like the answer you get - accept it, or don't play in that event.

[peter.cosgrove]

Actually, let me back up. Still kind of channeling the original conversation where I was told that having 5 librarians with a command squad meant that the command squad was only allowed one power.

 

The reasoning I was given was not "It's ITC rules" but was based on the "but no unit can attempt to manifest" in the BRB. And to use that discussion point is frankly bollocks. Reading the ITC forums and Frontline Gaming Forums where they are talking about banning psychic lists and that psychic powers are OP and need to be nerfed, ok whatever. That just means I need to just not go to ITC events. The problem is that the 2 gaming events I can go to every week both use ITC. So either scratch 40k off the list of weekly scheduled hobbies or work through the issue.

 

And at this point someone is going to say.. well just don't use psykers. And that answer is asinine, or facetious at best. It's part of playing chaos. Chaos space marines gets ML3/4 Psykers with Spell Familiar. It's one bit that's better than Space Marines.

[fluger]

That just means I need to just not go to ITC events. The problem is that the 2 gaming events I can go to every week both use ITC. So either scratch 40k off the list of weekly scheduled hobbies or work through the issue.

 

Yup, that's about the gist of it.  If you don't like the ruling, you can either stop going to ITC events, or stop playing 40k, or just deal with it.  

 

You can petition your TO to treat you like a special flower and have this ruling reversed so you can play the army you want, but that certainly opens up the floodgates to all the people who had units get nerfed/banned in ITC.  

 

Whatever your feelings on this particular ruling (which appear to be VERY strong), the ITC's stated intent is to tone down the potential excesses of 40k without restrictions.  If you'd like to take a gander at 40k sans ITC restrictions check out the lists at the Know No Mercy Tournament in Sacramento.  

[peter.cosgrove]

It may not make the entire unit (the whole squad) a single psyker - but they are still a 'unit', as indicated on pg 166. "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes...".

 

The IC (or ICs) become part of that unit.

 

Pg 24, A 'unit' can not cast the same psyker power more than once a turn.

 

What am I missing here?

There it is... Page 24.. it doesn't say that.. What it says is...

 

"Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per psychic phase"

 

So unless you are saying that a Space Marine Command Squad is capable of manifesting a psychic power, then the term unit is referring directly to...

 

Psyker "A Model with this special rule is a Psyker...."

Psychic Pilot "A Vehicle with this special rule is a Psyker..."

Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers "A unit containing at least one model with THIS SPECIAL RULE [please note. Not Psyker... Not Psychic Pilot) is a Psyker Unit...

Because of ..

"For the purposes of all rules, the term 'Psyker' and 'Psyker unit' refers to any unit with the Psyker (pg 170), Psychic Pilot (pg 170) or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers (pg 159) special rules.'

 

 

A unit capable of manifesting a psychic power is specifically, and only, a model with the special rule "Psyker", or a vehicle with the special rule "Psychic Pilot" or a unit with the special rule "Brotherhood of Psykers" according to Page 22...

 

"Sometimes Psychic power might be manifested by a vehicle, or even by entire squads"

 

The rule of "no unit" is specifically referring to manifesting a psychic power. The paragraph is even titled "MANIFESTING PSYCHIC POWERS" 

 

so the only way that a non psychic squad could be capable of manifesting is if the squad gains the psyker/psychic pilot/brotherhood of psykers special rule.

 

The only way the single use of unit in that one sentence can possibly be used according to English comprehension is specifically to units capable of manifesting Psychic Powers. To apply that term unit to some other definition of unit that includes both the definition of units that are completely incapable of manifesting psychic powers and units as joined by IC's, is a failure of English comprehension. You need to read the whole paragraph and the whole section and all the special rules. 

 

The only units capable of manifesting psychic powers are models with the Psyker special rule, Vehicles with the Psychic Pilot special rule and units with the brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rule. These special rules are not conferred onto a unit that a model as an IC with the Psyker special rule has joined, therefore a squad without the psyker/psychich pilot/brotherhood of psykers/sorcerers special rule are incapable of manifesting a psychic power and therefore shouldn't even be considered as a unit capable of manifesting a psychic power or a unit with the psychic special rules being conferred upon them.

 

It's the same thing as infilitrate... This is not rocket science.. 

[fluger]

This wouldn't be the only rule that is altered with the intent of making the game more balanced.  The ITC specifically alters the rule on Invisibility and save re-rolls.  

[peter.cosgrove]

It may not make the entire unit (the whole squad) a single psyker - but they are still a 'unit', as indicated on pg 166. "While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes...".

 

The IC (or ICs) become part of that unit.

 

Pg 24, A 'unit' can not cast the same psyker power more than once a turn.

 

What am I missing here?

 

And this, again, is why I brought up all the situationals.. which someone poo-pooed.

 

If the "unit" is now considered to be the "unit capable of manifesting a psychic power" then I should be able to do 3 or 4 additional things like

 

Beam Witchfires can now be measured from any model in the "unit" instead of the "unit" model that is actually casting the Psychic power with the special rule "Psyker". Since the rule for beam specifically states that you can hit even your own "unit" this is a significant change because the actual "unit" model manifesting the power will usually be closer to the "unit" model(s) you are trying to hit and will relieve you from hitting your own models in your "unit"

 

Nova Witchfires can now be measured in it's entirety from all the models in the "unit" instead of the "unit" model that is casting the Psychic power with the special rule "Psyker unit". Since most nova's are AOE this means you will hit even more models in enemy "units"

 

And Finally... Perils of the Warp wounds can now be allocated to any model in the "unit" that is manifesting the Psychic power. So instead of my Psyker model taking a wound I can instead allocate it to a list member of the "unit" that the IC Psyker has joined. Because you know... it's now the "unit" that is manifesting the spell, not the model. 

 

Even though "Psyker" special rule specifically says model.. not unit.

And "Psyker Unit"specifically is referred to mean Psyker Model, Psychic Pilot Vehicle, or Brotherhood of Psyker/Sorcerers "units" for all special rules and all rules purposes.

[galahad911]

So, if 2 librarians are joined together into a squad, it is 1 unit. If either of those librarians manifests a power, then that unit has manifested that power. Reguardless or what unit those 2 librarians joins, if they manifest a power, then a model in that unit is manifesting a power, therefore that unit is manifesting a power. When you make multiple psykers join a single unit to protect them from shooting attacks, then you can't just not have it be a single unit when you want to manifest powers. It is a single unit. If you get the benefit of being in a unit when you're shot at, or making close combat attacks even though the librarian isn't in base to base contact but is within 2" of another squad member, then you also get the negatives that comes with being a single unit and trying to manifest powers.

[sorienor]

So, if 2 librarians are joined together into a squad, it is 1 unit. If either of those librarians manifests a power, then that unit has manifested that power. Reguardless or what unit those 2 librarians joins, if they manifest a power, then a model in that unit is manifesting a power, therefore that unit is manifesting a power. When you make multiple psykers join a single unit to protect them from shooting attacks, then you can't just not have it be a single unit when you want to manifest powers. It is a single unit. If you get the benefit of being in a unit when you're shot at, or making close combat attacks even though the librarian isn't in base to base contact but is within 2" of another squad member, then you also get the negatives that comes with being a single unit and trying to manifest powers.

This. Exactly.

[Guest]

So, if 2 librarians are joined together into a squad, it is 1 unit. If either of those librarians manifests a power, then that unit has manifested that power. Reguardless or what unit those 2 librarians joins, if they manifest a power, then a model in that unit is manifesting a power, therefore that unit is manifesting a power. When you make multiple psykers join a single unit to protect them from shooting attacks, then you can't just not have it be a single unit when you want to manifest powers. It is a single unit. If you get the benefit of being in a unit when you're shot at, or making close combat attacks even though the librarian isn't in base to base contact but is within 2" of another squad member, then you also get the negatives that comes with being a single unit and trying to manifest powers.

I did a write up on psyker squads here: http://www.ordofanaticus.com/index.php?/topic/26426-psyker-units/

 

It is very notable that psyker units select powers known to the unit prior to selecting models to measure the psychic powers to/from. This allows a psyker to cast any powers known to the unit, even if the psyker doesn't personally know the power. So the advantage to having both librarians in a single squad is that both have the same knowledge of powers while within that squad.

 

A model like Ariman, which has rules permitting additional castings, may be able to attain a wider array of spells if more psykers are attached to his squad. And, in particular, powers which aren't normally attainable by that model.

 

Mind you, this and the linked article are based on pure RAW, not ITC rulings. I didn't check how the ITC does or doesn't differ.