Heretic Librarius Conclave and Order of Events

[WestRider]

End of Phase stuff doesn't include stuff you do during the Phase. You don't hit End of the Psychic Phase until you've finished using all the Psychic Powers you're going to use.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Yes, like it says, after all other actions have been taken, they can take their actions, and the next phase starts.  

[WestRider]

No, you can't take "during phase" actions at the "end of phase", only things that specify "end of phase". That was the whole point of separating out the "start of phase" and "end of phase" from the phase itself.

[Guest]

Been thinking about it. I know I already suggested BA, but hear me out.

 

At 175pts each, you can get AV13 front level 2 BA Librarian Dreadnoughts. They are an HQ slot. The key advantage would be that additional AV13 would help spread out enemy AT weapons. They are spendy and have less warp charges, but seems a point worthy of mention, since the imperial knights are also about AV13.

[InfestedKerrigan]

No, you can't take "during phase" actions at the "end of phase", only things that specify "end of phase". That was the whole point of separating out the "start of phase" and "end of phase" from the phase itself.

 

Where are you seeing this? It explicitly states the remaining Libbies manifest their powers during the End of the Phase. 

 

 

@Pax, if I had the points to play with, a BA Detachment with Libby Dreads and a GK Detachment with Dreadknights would be grand.  I don't have the points, though, and it doesn't seem as though that BA force would have much in the way of WC, making it not worth taking I don't think.

[Guest]

@Pax, if I had the points to play with, a BA Detachment with Libby Dreads and a GK Detachment with Dreadknights would be grand.  I don't have the points, though, and it doesn't seem as though that BA force would have much in the way of WC, making it not worth taking I don't think.

Not sure how many points you have to work with via the above.

 

GK seem mostly iffy with a goal being actual daemon summoning.

 

I did work out the points for Codex: INQ. 164pts for 6 Warp Charges and a maxed out FoC. Mind you, the detachment is free KP otherwise....

 

I will note that neither GK nor INQ have access to malefic daemonology.

 

Off-hand basics, I'd looking into that INQ, and then see if you can fit a BA allied detachemtn (1 Libby Dread HQ and Cassor the Damned, the BA special character DC dread that's a troops slot). Should be around 500pts there, with 8 warp charges, including one daemon summoning Dreadnought. From there, I'd flesh out the INQ, so they aren't entirely worthless, look into dreadnought drop pods, or consider upgrading the allied into a CAD for a fortification (a skyshield would be really OP with imperial knights).

[WestRider]

Where are you seeing this? It explicitly states the remaining Libbies manifest their powers during the End of the Phase.

Doesn't say anything about them being able to Manifest Powers during the End of Phase. It just says they can't do it before then. It could make a difference if there were still Psychic Powers that were used at other points in the Turn, but as it stands, it's functionally the same as saying they can't Manifest Powers until their next Turn.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I feel like if I were reading it wrong, there would be a half dozen or so people saying as much.  Or that if you were playing it wrong, the same thing, we'd have people jumping in saying you were doing it wrong.  This leads me to believe that how I read it is correct, but that people feel that is not how it should be played and there is enough split, that nobody is weighing in.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Emp Channeling says they cannot Manifest their Powers until the End of the Phase.  That is when.  Does it say you can during the Beginning of the Phase?  No.  Does it say you can during the "Middle" of the Phase?  No.  Does it say you can during the End of the Phase?  Yes. 
The BRB says that the "End of the Phase" happens after all OTHER actions are done, so after all your other Psykers have done everything you are having them do, you can then Manifest your powers, because that happens at the End of the Phase, before the Next Phase starts.

[galahad911]

Emp Channeling says they cannot Manifest their Powers until the End of the Phase.  That is when.  Does it say you can during the Beginning of the Phase?  No.  Does it say you can during the "Middle" of the Phase?  No.  Does it say you can during the End of the Phase?  Yes. 

The BRB says that the "End of the Phase" happens after all OTHER actions are done, so after all your other Psykers have done everything you are having them do, you can then Manifest your powers, because that happens at the End of the Phase, before the Next Phase starts.

 

Okay, so you want your guy to take everyone's powers and cast on a 2+ with the only cost being that the others only have to be last in the casting order? That seems fair to you? How are you doing something that you do during the phase at the end of the phase? Isn't the end of the phase, by definition, after ALL the things you do during that phase is finished. It's not enough casting most anything you want with the exact number of dice, maybe 1 more?

[InfestedKerrigan]

Pg 17 Describes two special parts of a phase, "The Beginning of the Phase" and "The End of the Phase."  It explicitly states that things can and do happen in these sections of the phase.  It states that things that happen at "The Beginning of the Phase" ARE ALWAYS RESOLVED BEFORE ANYTHING ELSE DURING THAT PHASE.  LIKEWISE, ANY RULE THAT SAYS AN ACTION OR EVENT HAPPENS AT THE END OF A PARTICULAR PHASE IS ALWAYS RESOLVED AFTER ALL OTHER ACTIONS HAVE BEEN PERFORMED DURING THAT PHASE.

 

It doesn't say it excludes that model from acting during that phase.  

 

Channeling states that until the End of the Phase part of the Phase happens, the Nominated knows all powers, and everyone else is unable to cast.  Once the End of the Phase begins, the Nominated loses access, and everyone else is able to cast.  Again, these actions are "Always resolved AFTER ALL OTHER ACTIONS have been performed."  ALWAYS RESOLVED.  The Librarians get to manifest powers so long as Warp Charges remain.

 

It has nothing to do with being fair, or not.  Fair is a subjective term that does not apply to reading the rules.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Also, Channeling DOES NOT say "Other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the Nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until your next turn."  It says until the end of the phase.

 

I'm not trying to be a dick, but all you've cited is your feelings, and nothing from the rules to support that it does not play the way I am saying it plays.

[Guest]

I feel like if I were reading it wrong, there would be a half dozen or so people saying as much.  Or that if you were playing it wrong, the same thing.  This leads me to believe that how I read it is correct, but that people feel that is not how it should be played and there is enough split, that nobody is weighing in.

Honestly, the below quote makes my head hurt and staying away from this one.

The whole rule is just confusing. Are you reading it right? I can't tell. I can't even form a stance on this one because RAW it just doesn't make any sense.

[InfestedKerrigan]

The second quote is from pg 17 of BRB.  The first two sentences say that things that happen at the Start of your phase are done before you do anything else in that phase.  Two examples would be Rolling for your d6 Warp Charges and Nominating a Librarian in the Conclave.  The third sentence says that anything that happens at the End of the phase is done after you do anything else you can do in that phase, it has to be the last thing you do "that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts."  This would be the Remaining Libbies Manifesting their powers and the Nominated Librarian 'forgetting' the powers.  

 

Does that help?

[Guest]

Only sort of.

 

So I nominate a psyker in the formation at the start of the psychic phase. We'll call him lib1. His buddies in the formation are lib2 and lib3.

 

His power knowledge is equal to that of the other psykers in the formation and within 12".

-This 12" is not determined when the model is nominated, but seems to be a constant. So any movement or other effects which alter the presence of lib2 or lib3 within 12" would affect lib1's power "access" during the psychic phase.

-It is unclear if his power knowledge includes his own powers, as the wording implies his power "access" is determined by the presence of "other" models.

 

Given that psychic powers are known "Per unit" within the psychic phase, it is unclear if this model's psychic unit knows the powers via the other models, or merely that this particular model has "access" to them. More so, with allied psykers in the unit with lib2 or lib3 may or may not be able to manifest powers known by lib2 or lib3, as the special rule merely prevents the model from casting, not the psychic unit from knowing the power.

 

As for "end of phase" related points, although poorly placed, the BRB does define the End of the Psychic phase on page 24 (last paragraph of generate warp charge). As per the BRB, the end of the psychic phase is defined by the player running out of warp charges, or by the player deciding that he/she no longer can or wants to declare any psychic actions. It also clearly states that at the end of the phase, the warp charge pool is reduced to 0.

 

So, at the end of the phase, lib2 and lib3 can't really manifest powers, they won't have any warp charges to do so, and you the player will have already declared it the end of your psychic phase.

[InfestedKerrigan]

It says "When the psychic phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the shooting phase begins."

 

Things that happen at the End of the Phase happen before that happens, as it cuts to the next phase, which pg 17 says is the very last thing to happen.

[Guest]

It says "When the psychic phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the shooting phase begins."

 

Things that happen at the End of the Phase happen before that happens, as it cuts to the next phase, which pg 17 says is the very last thing to happen.

So your argument is that the "End of the Phase" and "when the phase ends" are separate things which happen at different times?

 

Good luck on that one .

[galahad911]

The second quote is from pg 17 of BRB.  The first two sentences say that things that happen at the Start of your phase are done before you do anything else in that phase.  Two examples would be Rolling for your d6 Warp Charges and Nominating a Librarian in the Conclave.  The third sentence says that anything that happens at the End of the phase is done after you do anything else you can do in that phase, it has to be the last thing you do "that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts."  This would be the Remaining Libbies Manifesting their powers and the Nominated Librarian 'forgetting' the powers.  

 

Does that help?

 

How is it the end of the phase if you're still manifesting powers? We're not talking about a thing that happens, like morale checks or the like, we're talking about a duration. If something pursists through the end of an event, the event is over, and then the effect ends.

[InfestedKerrigan]

How is it the end of the phase if you're still manifesting powers? We're not talking about a thing that happens, like morale checks or the like, we're talking about a duration. If something pursists through the end of an event, the event is over, and then the effect ends.

 

Except that is not what the BRB says. 

[galahad911]

...

[WestRider]

The BRB does give three conditions for ending the Psychic Phase: No WC left, no powers left that you can cast, no powers left that you want to cast. You don't hit "the end of the Psychic Phase" until one of those three happens, and none of them allows the option of casting any more powers afterward, by their very nature.

[galahad911]

So, librarian 2 has invisibility, and passes it to Libby 1 because he's within 12". Libbey 1 casts successfully that invisibility. So not only do you want to cast easier, but you want to cast a second instance on invisibility "at the end of the phase" even though you only rolled invisibility once?

 

How can something last until the end of a phase, end, and it still be that phase? Yes, there are things you do at the end of phases, like tyrannocyte shooting, and morale checks, grounding tests, etc. This doesn't say at the end of the phase, cast your spells. It is an effect, with a given duration of, until the end of the phase. So, again, if the duration has expired, so the phase has ended, how are you going back and casting?

[InfestedKerrigan]

This doesn't say at the end of the phase, cast your spells. It is an effect, with a given duration of, until the end of the phase. So, again, if the duration has expired, so the phase has ended, how are you going back and casting?

 

Yes it does, you appear to be missing that aspect of the rules.  Emp Channeling says that the remaining Libbies Manifest their Powers at the End of the Phase, which is GOING BACK AND CASTING,

[InfestedKerrigan]

The BRB does give three conditions for ending the Psychic Phase: No WC left, no powers left that you can cast, no powers left that you want to cast. You don't hit "the end of the Psychic Phase" until one of those three happens, and none of them allows the option of casting any more powers afterward, by their very nature.

 

Those in and of themselves do not grant permission.  Emp Channeling is the Qualifier.  It says they Manifest at the End of the Phase.  They don't manifest with everyone else, they manifest AFTER everyone else has acted in the phase.  Once everyone else has cast, you enter "the end of the psychic phase" and Emp Channeling triggers, having the Nominated lose access to the extra powers AND his mates Manifesting.

[Guest]

Those in and of themselves do not grant permission.  Emp Channeling is the Qualifier.  It says they Manifest at the End of the Phase.  They don't manifest with everyone else, they manifest AFTER everyone else has acted in the phase.  Once everyone else has cast, you enter "the end of the psychic phase" and Emp Channeling triggers, having the Nominated lose access to the extra powers AND his mates Manifesting.

You are reading it wrong.

 

Look, I'm not exactly known as the voice of reason on this site. If people are agreeing with me, you may want to drop this one. Get some rest and some food, then look at it again in the morning. Either you'll see our point, or you'll discover a more sound way to convince us.