Heretic Librarius Conclave and Order of Events

[galahad911]

The way I read it, the others get to cast, but they have to be the last psykers to Cast during my turn.  So if I had the 4 Conclave within 12 of each other, boost the Chosen One, cast his power, and then cast with the other 3, my GK Libbies wouldn't be able to cast.

 

 

It is pretty straight forward.

 

If they were not meant to use their abilities until your next turn it would say that.  It doesn't.

 

 

Right here!!! It does not say they manifest at the end, it says they CANNOT until the end. If you're at the end, you can't go back. OMG dude, read your own posts.

[WestRider]

It never says that they can. It never makes a positive statement allowing them to manifest powers outside of the "main" part of the psychic phase. All it says is that they cannot manifest powers during the main part of the psychic phase. It's badly worded, yes, but hey, it's GW.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I'm an hour and a half into my work shift. ;)  No sleeping when the Sun is down.

 

Yeah, but in your 20 page discussions, people cite rules, you guys are just citing feelings.  And I get the point of your feelings, but your feelings are not the rules, and the rules aren't doing what your feelings want them to do. 

 

 

Right here!!! It does not say they manifest at the end, it says they CANNOT until the end. If you're at the end, you can't go back. OMG dude, read your own posts.

 

Who says anything about going back?  It says "cannot manifest...until the end of the psychic phase."  The Other Quoted Paragraph tells you what the "end of the phase" is and what happens there.  It says that things that happen at the end of the phase happen after every other action in the phase has been done, just like things that happen at the beginning of the phase happen before every other action in the phase has been done.  No one is "going back."  Manifesting isn't a phase of the Psychic Phase.  Manifesting is an action or event that happens during the Psychic phase.

[galahad911]

I'm an hour and a half into my work shift. ;)  No sleeping when the Sun is down.

 

Yeah, but in your 20 page discussions, people cite rules, you guys are just citing feelings.  And I get the point of your feelings, but your feelings are not the rules, and the rules aren't doing what your feelings want them to do. 

 

 

 

Who says anything about going back?  It says "cannot manifest...until the end of the psychic phase."  The Other Quoted Paragraph tells you what the "end of the phase" is and what happens there.  It says that things that happen at the end of the phase happen after every other action in the phase has been done, just like things that happen at the beginning of the phase happen before every other action in the phase has been done.  No one is "going back."  Manifesting isn't a phase of the Psychic Phase.  Manifesting is an action or event that happens during the Psychic phase.

 

 

Yes, during, not at the end. Unless you are specifically told to do something at the end, it's the end. You're not specifically told you can do something here, you're told you CANNOT do something until then. Unless you find something giving you permission to manifest your powers at the end of the phase, you can't.

 

And simply put, that you want all of the benefits of the conclave and none of the negatives is hilarious to me. rofl

[Guest]

I'm an hour and a half into my work shift. ;)  No sleeping when the Sun is down.

 

Yeah, but in your 20 page discussions, people cite rules, you guys are just citing feelings.  And I get the point of your feelings, but your feelings are not the rules, and the rules aren't doing what your feelings want them to do. 

Glad you're rested, but seriously, give it some time. This is the advice I wish people would give me after we talk in circles for only 2 pages. 20 pages of talking in circles is too many for anyone on any topic. Believe it or not, I do learn from my encounters.

 

You don't have to change your mind, but if you want to convince others of your stance, you do need to think of a new way to express it.

[Guest]

For the record, I don't really understand the main point of your argument. Like, I mean, isn't the point to attain summon daemons via psykers, not to debate the special formation rules. How does this formation, as you see it, actually achieve the goal of summoning daemons in a knight army?

 

Powers are known per psychic UNIT during the psychic phase. Even if the SM librarians cannot manifest their known powers, an attached GK psyker can cast any of the powers they know if they are one unit.

 

Furthermore, if you attached your boosted psyker to a unit with the brotherhood of psykers (like that GK strike squad you listed on a page), then only models with the brotherhood of psykers may be nominated to cast powers within that psychic unit. So even with the formation rule, it does nothing if the boosted psyker is attached to a GK squad (because he cannot be nominated as a manifesting model while without that brotherhood of psykers rule).

 

Now you could form one "super" unit of all the psykers in the formation, but really it doesn't change anything because the powers remain known per psychic unit and each psychic unit may only attempt to manifest a power once per psychic phase.

 

It is also notable that if your non-boosted psykers are joined by a non-formation psyker, they don't forget their powers via empyric channeling, so merely adding non-formation psykers to formation psykers means that their psychic unit still knows all the powers. In example, attaching an AM primaris psyker to the non-boosted SM psyker would allow that psychic unit to cast any of the powers known to the primaris and the non-boosted SM psyker, with the nominated model manifesting the powers being the primaris psyker.

 

So, really, the only way this formation has any real ability to cast duplicated powers within your interpretation, is if the psykers are running solo or attached to non-psychic brotherhood units. And as far as I can tell, your not advocating that they do this.

 

Which brings me back the question of how this clarification on Empyric Channeling really aids your plan to summon daemons....?

[InfestedKerrigan]

Yes, in this discussion as it currently stands, we are only looking at the Conclave, not anything else.  Mind you, I haven't played with the conclave, this is just how I read the order of operations as outlined in the BRB and in Empyric Channeling.  Actually, I'll outline how the Psychic Turn is laid out, as I read it.  Or at least the best I can not having my BRB on me at work.

 

{Movement Phase Ends}

{Psychic Phase Begins}

{Beginning of Psychic Phase - Actions and Events that happen before anything else in the Phase}

-Add d6 Warp Charges to your pool.

-Tally your Pool and your Opponents Pool

-Nominate a Libby, now knows all powers of Mates within 12" until end of psy phase.  Mates "cannot manifest until the end of psychic phase"

{Beginning of Psychic Phase Ends as no other Actions/Events that take place "at the beginning of the psychic phase."}

-Pick a Psyker to Manifest a Power.  Cannot pick a Conclave Mate within 12" of the Nominated, well technically you could, but they are unable to manifest yet.  So, you pick the Nominated, and Manifest his first power.  You spend some dice.

-Pick a Psyker to Manifest a Power.  This continues, and you can bounce between available Psykers, but a single unit cannot cast the same spell more than once. 

---Let us assume the Nominated casts what I want him to cast and I still have 4 Charges left.  He is done casting.  I don't have any other casters that I want to use at this moment, so...

{End of Psychic Phase, Actions and Events that happen after everything else in the phase}

-Nominated no longer has access to Mates powers

-We are now at the End of the psychic phase, and are able to cast with the mates as they "cannot manifest until the end of the phase" and we are at the end of the phase.  I have 4 WC, I am able to Manifest.  If I had 0 WC, I wouldn't be able to manifest.

-Psychic Phase section says the last thing to happen in the phase before the Shooting phase begins is both players Pools are reduced to 0

{Psychic Phase Ends}

{Shooting Phase Begins}

{Beginning of Shooting Phase, Actions Events that happen before everything else this phase}

[galahad911]

Yes, in this discussion as it currently stands, we are only looking at the Conclave, not anything else.  Mind you, I haven't played with the conclave, this is just how I read the order of operations as outlined in the BRB and in Empyric Channeling.  Actually, I'll outline how the Psychic Turn is laid out, as I read it.  Or at least the best I can not having my BRB on me at work.

 

{Movement Phase Ends}

{Psychic Phase Begins}

{Beginning of Psychic Phase - Actions and Events that happen before anything else in the Phase}

-Add d6 Warp Charges to your pool.

-Tally your Pool and your Opponents Pool

-Nominate a Libby, now knows all powers of Mates within 12" until end of psy phase.  Mates "cannot manifest until the end of psychic phase"

{Beginning of Psychic Phase Ends as no other Actions/Events that take place "at the beginning of the psychic phase."}

-Pick a Psyker to Manifest a Power.  Cannot pick a Conclave Mate within 12" of the Nominated, well technically you could, but they are unable to manifest yet.  So, you pick the Nominated, and Manifest his first power.  You spend some dice.

-Pick a Psyker to Manifest a Power.  This continues, and you can bounce between available Psykers, but a single unit cannot cast the same spell more than once. 

---Let us assume the Nominated casts what I want him to cast and I still have 4 Charges left.  He is done casting.  I don't have any other casters that I want to use at this moment, so...

{End of Psychic Phase, Actions and Events that happen after everything else in the phase}

-Nominated no longer has access to Mates powers

-We are now at the End of the psychic phase, and are able to cast with the mates as they "cannot manifest until the end of the phase" and we are at the end of the phase.  I have 4 WC, I am able to Manifest.  If I had 0 WC, I wouldn't be able to manifest.

-Psychic Phase section says the last thing to happen in the phase before the Shooting phase begins is both players Pools are reduced to 0

{Psychic Phase Ends}

{Shooting Phase Begins}

{Beginning of Shooting Phase, Actions Events that happen before everything else this phase}

 

 

Italicized by me. Where did you find specific permission to do that?

 

It's isn't enough to say that it doesn't say you can't.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Galahad, the drawback comes to deciding to invest all your charges into the guy who is getting everything off, but only casting each once, or saving a few dice to be able to cast a couple things.  Succeeding on a 2+, how many of their dice is your opponent going to throw at countering?  Good chance of them still having some at the end of the phase, significantly reducing your success on those Manifestations.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Italicized by me. Where did you find specific permission to do that?

 

It's isn't enough to say that it doesn't say you can't.

 

Empyric Channeling says that those Libbies "cannot cast until the end of the phase."  Page 17 BRB says the "end of the phase" is a timeframe that things happen, but they happen after anything that doesn't happen at the "end of the phase."

 

Notably, it does not say "cannot cast for the remainder of the phase."  It does not say "cannot cast for the remainder of your turn."  It does not say "cannot cast until your next turn." 

[galahad911]

Empyric Channeling says that those Libbies "cannot cast until the end of the phase."  Page 17 BRB says the "end of the phase" is a timeframe that things happen, but they happen after anything that doesn't happen at the "end of the phase."

 

Notably, it does not say "cannot cast for the remainder of the phase."  It does not say "cannot cast for the remainder of your turn."  It does not say "cannot cast until your next turn." 

 

Yes, very specific things that you are told to do then. Read that paragraph again. "Likewise, any rule that says and action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved... ect" The formation rules tell you that you can't do something until end of phase, but it doesn't give you permission to do whatever you like. In order for you to use that paragraph you need to be specifically told what to do. This isn't voluntary decision time anymore, that was during the phase.

 

Clinging onto it not saying you cannot cast at all in order to cast twice a spell you only know once is gamey at best.

[Guest]

Clinging onto it not saying you cannot cast at all in order to cast twice a spell you only know once is gamey at best.

Funny bit is the special rule does allow you to cast a known power twice, just not in the manner IK is suggesting.

 

2 libbies from that formation within 12" attached to different units. For the example, say a AM command squad with telepath and a AM vet squad.

 

We nominate the libby attached to the AM vet squad to "Know" the powers that the libby within 12" already knows. We use that libby to the cast the power.

 

Now we switch to the command squad. The telepath selects one of the psychic powers known to his psychic unit (which includes the non-boosted libby's powers) and manifests it. At no point in Empyric Channelling does it say the non-boosted libby ceases to know the powers, just that he personally cannot manifest them.

 

Totally gamey.

[WestRider]

The reason we're not citing anything is that our argument is based on the fact that the action your taking is never mentioned as being allowed. It's not citable, because it doesn't exist. The burden of proof is on you to show that it does exist.

[fluger]

Totally didn't read this thread.  FWIW, I think Infested is right, in the same way that automated fire weapons fire last at the end of the shooting phase.  They don't miss out on shooting because they fire at the end of the shooting phase.  

 

There's also no reason that the conclave needs a negative, plenty of formations are just good.  

[InfestedKerrigan]

I think Infested is right

 

I'll swing by this afternoon with that money. 

[fluger]

Heh.

 

But, for serious, I think it's comparable to automated fire.  I mean, if they didn't want the other librarians to cast at all, they could've stated that implicitly.  

[InfestedKerrigan]

I agree.  Instead, this BRAND NEW CODEX MADE FOR THIS EDITION OF THE RULES says that they don't Manifest until the end of the phase, which the BRB explains.  It directly refers to a section of the phase with specific rules, those rules being that every other action you are taking that phase be done.  It's the GW way of saying "They go last during the psychic phase." 

[InfestedKerrigan]

By the way, Galahad, my ultimate goal was just to summon as many Khornate Daemons as I could a turn.  I wasn't looking at repeatedly casting Invis or Iron Arm or I don't know what.  What the Conclave was ultimately doing for me was getting me a Bloodthirster into play on WC manifestations progressing on 2+ Turn 1 / 2+ Turn 2 / 2+ Turn 3 / 3+ Turn 4 / and 4+ Turn 5.  Potentially substituting those 5 Libbies for 5 Bloodthirsters is pretty [big bad swear word]ing sweet, in my opinion. 

[galahad911]

Totally didn't read this thread.  FWIW, I think Infested is right, in the same way that automated fire weapons fire last at the end of the shooting phase.  They don't miss out on shooting because they fire at the end of the shooting phase.  

 

There's also no reason that the conclave needs a negative, plenty of formations are just good.  

 

Automated weapons fire is mandatory. The rules give you a set of instructions, and you follow them. This is not the same thing. This doesn't say that they do something at the end of the phase, it says that they cannot do something until then. So you're saying that you get to the end of the phase, say wait, hold up, I still want to do voluntary things that happen during this phase, but have it still be the end of the phase.

 

That start and end of a phase paragraph is for mandatory things that happen at the end, like grounding checks, morale tests, and yes, automated fire, which is mandatory.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I think you are incorrect about it being restricted to mandatory actions.  First example of a Voluntary thing that happens at the beginning of the phase, Nominating a Librarian for Empyric Channeling.  It is not a mandatory action.

[galahad911]

Okay then, give me an end of phase, non mandatory rule.

[InfestedKerrigan]

 

Show me where it says that these actions are restricted to mandatory.  In both instances it refers to any rule that says an action or event happens at the beginning or end of a particular phase.  I showed you a voluntary Beginning Phase.  The rules refer to both in the same fashion.  I've already shown proof.

[fluger]

That start and end of a phase paragraph is for mandatory things that happen at the end, like grounding checks, morale tests, and yes, automated fire, which is mandatory.

Again, if they just wanted no one else to cast, they could've straight up said that.  I really don't see GW obfuscating their own rules in such a manner, they didn't need to be coy.  Why have all that stuff about manifesting powers, when they could've just flat stated, all other psykers cannot manifest powers.  

 

I mean, I see what you're driving at, but I don't think it's either RAW or RAI.  

[WestRider]

Again, if they just wanted no one else to cast, they could've straight up said that.  I really don't see GW obfuscating their own rules in such a manner, they didn't need to be coy.  Why have all that stuff about manifesting powers, when they could've just flat stated, all other psykers cannot manifest powers.  

 

I mean, I see what you're driving at, but I don't think it's either RAW or RAI.  

I can just as easily see them writing obfuscated Rules just because they're bad at writing Rules. But still, mandatory or not, every other example of start/end of phase stuff explicitly tells you to do something then. This just tells you that you can't do it before then.

[InfestedKerrigan]

But hey, cuz I'm such a nice guy.  Vector Strike is a Voluntary Action that happens at the end of the Phase.