WestRider Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 And it explicitly tells you actively to resolve it at the end of the phase. The Conclave gives no positive instruction, just a restriction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Yes, that they cannot Manifest until the end of the phase. Page 17 quote above spells out what the end of the phase is and Page 24 spells out how to Manifest. It simply says they cannot do XX action until YY Phase. If there were a special rule that said "Shoebob cannot shoot until the end of the assault phase," how would you play it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 That he cannot shoot. If, on the other hand, the rule said that shoebob shoots at the end of the phase, then yes, he would. The second gives positive instruction, the first only applies a limitation, but doesn't allow anything outside the normal sequence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Also, regarding Vector Strike. Vector Strike is explaining how Vector Strike works, so yes, it has to go into more depth right there. Empyric Channeling doesn't need to describe how to Manifest, that's covered in the BRB, already. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 And it explicitly tells you actively to resolve it at the end of the phase. The Conclave gives no positive instruction, just a restriction. This! OMG this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 While GW does suck at writing rules, it makes no sense to add "until the end of the phase." Why print 6 extra words when they could've put a period there? I have no horse in this race, space marines are dumb and the psychic phase is for weenies. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 While GW does suck at writing rules, it makes no sense to add "until the end of the phase." Why print 6 extra words when they could've put a period there? I have no horse in this race, space marines are dumb and the psychic phase is for weenies. Because they do dumb [big bad swear word] like that all the time. And it causes dumb discussions like this one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Here, maybe this will help. In the spoiler is the source text I've quoted repeatedly. This is Empyric Channeling having Start of Phase and End of Phase replaced with Their definitions from the BRB. Empyric Channeling: (Before you resolve anything else in the Psychic phase), you can nominate one Librarian from this Formation. If you do, the nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this formation within 12" until (all other actions have been performed this phase); however, other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until (all other actions have been performed this phase). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Okay dude. Have at it. If your friends are okay with this level of rules lawyering then good on you. If you can find an event where the guy running it is cool with this. Great! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 This isn't rules lawyering, this is the rules, period. It's not trying to manipulate a square through a circle. It is the Square and the Square, but you guys aren't seeing the Squares. And you're convinced I'm seeing pentagons. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 And why are you convinced Formations have drawbacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 You are, in my opinion, manipulating the rules to cast spells twice that you only have one of when, again in my opinion, that is not an intended effect. You want to cast your spells twice that you only rolled once and are shocked that I'd call it lawyering? It doesn't matter what you intend to use it for. If you only rolled 1 invisibility, and cast it with the nominated guy and then at the end of the phase want to cast it again, on a different unit with the libby who actually rolled the power, that sure as hell seems to be to be above and beyond the intended effect of the formation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Because they do dumb [big bad swear word] like that all the time. And it causes dumb discussions like this one. If your argument is that GW writes [big bad swear word]ty rules and are using a byzantine collection of rules written by GW to hold up a ruling, then I think you shot your own argument in the foot. Again, why include that last bit of words if the intent was to have the psykers cast no other powers. I know arguing about intent is stupid, but I find the convoluted rules lawyering going on to be very strange. (if this, then this, so therefore this!) RAW on the page, it reads just like automated fire (which fires at the end of the shooting phase) or morale checks (happen at the end of the phase). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Here, maybe this will help. In the spoiler is the source text I've quoted repeatedly. This is Empyric Channeling having Start of Phase and End of Phase replaced with Their definitions from the BRB. Empyric Channeling: (Before you resolve anything else in the Psychic phase), you can nominate one Librarian from this Formation. If you do, the nominated Librarian has access to any psychic powers known by other Librarians from this formation within 12" until (all other actions have been performed this phase); however, other Librarians from this Formation within 12" of the nominated Librarian cannot manifest psychic powers until (all other actions have been performed this phase). We've all read that, each of the like four times you've posted it before. We're all working off the same wording, it's just that we're pointing out that we think it has to say that you can take a "during phase" action at the "end of the phase", while you're saying that it just doesn't say you can't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 If your argument is that GW writes [big bad swear word]ty rules and are using a byzantine collection of rules written by GW to hold up a ruling, then I think you shot your own argument in the foot. Again, why include that last bit of words if the intent was to have the psykers cast no other powers. I know arguing about intent is stupid, but I find the convoluted rules lawyering going on to be very strange. (if this, then this, so therefore this!) RAW on the page, it reads just like automated fire (which fires at the end of the shooting phase) or morale checks (happen at the end of the phase). It doesn't read like that though. Those things give you explicit instructions. This is the duration of an effect ending. Nominated guy takes their powers until end of phase. Effect... Duration. If he's got their powers until the end of the phase, how are they using stuff he has until the end of the phase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Totally didn't read this thread. FWIW, I think Infested is right, in the same way that automated fire weapons fire last at the end of the shooting phase. They don't miss out on shooting because they fire at the end of the shooting phase. The wording is very different. Though you are correct in that it is resolved at the end of the phase. Shots from automated fire are resolved at the end of the shooting phase, just before any morale checks are take, and as if being fired by a model with a ballistic skill of 2. While GW does suck at writing rules, it makes no sense to add "until the end of the phase." Why print 6 extra words when they could've put a period there? I have no horse in this race, space marines are dumb and the psychic phase is for weenies. It does make sense. You have two lines in this rule which end with "until the end of phase." The point is to show that they are connected in duration. On a side note, are you sure than either of these quotes are actually in the books they are quoting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Yes, I went through the effort of taking the picture, combing the pictures in Paint, and uploading them. Thanks for questioning my integrity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 It doesn't read like that though. Those things give you explicit instructions. This is the duration of an effect ending. Nominated guy takes their powers until end of phase. Effect... Duration. If he's got their powers until the end of the phase, how are they using stuff he has until the end of the phase? What if they want to cast a different power? Again, WHY would they write up "until the end of the phase" if they intended it to not allow manifesting powers period? Again, I think you've come up with a labyrinthine, but acceptable reason for your argument, I just think it is too circuitous and unnecessary when a more straight-forward reading of the rules comes up with just casting at the end of the phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 For the record, my BRB on the "start and end of turn" is this Yes, I went through the effort of taking the picture, combing the pictures in Paint, and uploading them. Thanks for questioning my integrity. Well, you did say the source of empyric channelling is from a spoiler, rather than the codex proper. In the spoiler is the source text I've quoted repeatedly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Well, you did say the source of empyric channelling is from a spoiler, rather than the codex proper. Pax, he's referring to one of those spoiler tag boxes. like this Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 What if they want to cast a different power? Again, WHY would they write up "until the end of the phase" if they intended it to not allow manifesting powers period? Again, I think you've come up with a labyrinthine, but acceptable reason for your argument, I just think it is too circuitous and unnecessary when a more straight-forward reading of the rules comes up with just casting at the end of the phase. Why would casting a different power be relevant? If it works the way you and IK say it does, then you are able to cast anything you have twice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I guess? Wouldn't be the first time for that either... Double Doin' Doo Dahs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Pax, he's referring to one of those spoiler tag boxes. like this Ah. Typically when people talk about codex spoilers, they are talking about rules which come out prior to the official release of the codex. That one was my mistake, IK. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 So, IK, I am curious. What is the plan for model deployment. Much of this rule depends on where your psykers are in relation to the other psykers, but also with what unit they are attach to. I know most of your points are in imperial knights, so you don't have that many squads to join up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 It doesn't read like that though. Those things give you explicit instructions. This is the duration of an effect ending. Nominated guy takes their powers until end of phase. Effect... Duration. If he's got their powers until the end of the phase, how are they using stuff he has until the end of the phase? Gonna quote myself, which feels really odd. lol? One of you answer this? How are the secondary guy using something the nominated guy has until the end of the phase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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