InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 What you guys seem to be stuck on at the moment is referring to "end of the psychic phase" as a duration of time, rather than a segment of time defined in the BRB. If it was a duration of time, I would agree with your reading, 100%. However, the BRB specifically spells out that the End of The Phase is a segment that follows all other actions done in the phase. This applies to what you were saying about permissions, WR. I'm not having a has/has not permission discussion, like you were saying. I'm having a End of the Phase is a Segment of Time not a Duration of Time discussion. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 So, IK, I am curious. What is the plan for model deployment. Much of this rule depends on where your psykers are in relation to the other psykers, but also with what unit they are attach to. I know most of your points are in imperial knights, so you don't have that many squads to join up. At the moment I'm considering having them run Solo. If I have a body bag unit, it will mainly be for keeping the Librarian with Bloodthirster summoning alive until everyone else has summoned a Thirster. Also, being that I really just want the 5 Libbies for spamming Bloodletters and Hounds, I was considering having them all on bike's with storm shields. That would consume the points I have to play with pretty evenly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 So, "until the end of the phase" isn't the duration of how long they cannot manifest powers? Is that not what it says? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 It is an action/event that happens at the end of the phase, a segment of time composed of a series of actions or events that take place after all other actions, but before the next phase starts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 So no. Okay. Whatever. Cast your spells twice against whoever lets you get away with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 In fact, when I get home I'll use the FLG rules question form and act shocked when it turns out that you can't cast your spells twice in ITC events. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Stop being emotionally attached to the belief that a formation is unfair and read the rules. I don't know if I can spell it any clearer. I'm not "getting away" with anything. Just open your eyes and see that it's not a duration, because the BRB says the exact opposite of what you are saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 That you don't see that as the duration of an effect is mind boggling to me. It says what happens and for how long. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 When you are looking at your Codex, and it says something about Armorbane, do you go to the Rule Book and see what the Rule Book says about Armorbane? Then why don't you refer to the Rule book about the end of the phase? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 That you don't see ... is mind boggling to me. Sums up most rules debates quite neatly. Also, that you don't see it how I see it is mind boggling to me. Does that change your mind now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Did you really need to look up what until end of phase meant? Or did you go looking for advantage? Nevermind. Cast your spells twice. You and I won't ever play anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 It's in the first 20 pages of your rule book. Remember, earlier, when I was asked to cite rules supporting my claim, and I did? Yeah, choke on a bag of "oh noes, that's not fair" next time you're playing against Eldar's D-weapons and Wraithknights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Actually, West Rider aaid you'd only get one casting and you were Johnny on the Spot with that paragraph. No one asked for it. But you sure had it ready to show everyone the loophole you found that, if read a certain way, would let you summon twice. So in fact, all this is about you wanting to cast a single power multiple times. I don't know anyone who natively speaks English that would feel the need to look up what until the end of the phase means. That you did speaks to you wanting to find it to mean something other than until the end of the phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 At the moment I'm considering having them run Solo. If I have a body bag unit, it will mainly be for keeping the Librarian with Bloodthirster summoning alive until everyone else has summoned a Thirster. Also, being that I really just want the 5 Libbies for spamming Bloodletters and Hounds, I was considering having them all on bike's with storm shields. That would consume the points I have to play with pretty evenly. And to be clear, the reason you are just not fielding the khorne daemons as actual allies is because ITC banned come the apocalypse allies, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Again, I think you've come up with a labyrinthine, but acceptable reason for your argument, I just think it is too circuitous and unnecessary when a more straight-forward reading of the rules comes up with just casting at the end of the phase. See, that's what IK's reasoning feels like to me in this situation. In my mind, there's nothing labyrinthine going on, that's just how it reads at first glance. It wasn't until a couple of weeks ago that I saw anyone say anything to suggest otherwise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Actually, West Rider aaid you'd only get one casting and you were Johnny on the Spot with that paragraph. No one asked for it. But you sure had it ready to show everyone the loophole you found that, if read a certain way, would let you summon twice. So in fact, all this is about you wanting to cast a single power multiple times. I don't know anyone who natively speaks English that would feel the need to look up what until the end of the phase means. That you did speaks to you wanting to find it to mean something other than until the end of the phase. When having rules discussions, it serves to cite your source, does it not? So yes, I got my sources cited. You never cited yours, outside of your feelings. Also, you can't get it into your head that GW felt the need to assign a specific meaning to "The Beginning and End of the Phase" in the first 17 pages of the Core Rule Book. The existence of that paragraph far predates my introduction to the Conclave a few nights ago. I didn't go digging in an obscure book that most people didn't buy. I referenced one of the first freaking things I read when opening the 7th edition Rule Book. I'm sorry you don't feel it important to read the rules, so it would seem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 A fellow gamer insists that "end of phase" refers to a duration of time. He can't cite rules supporting his belief. I insist that "end of phase" refers to a segment of time in which things happen, per BRB pg 17, under the heading "Beginning and End of Phase." Filed the ITC Rules Question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galahad911 Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Wow, way to not even address the actual question. Why not ask them if the conclave works the way you insist it does. Or, you know what, don't. I'll take care of that for you. It's so funny. Years and years ago, a guy went to thr ard boyz finals and wanted the rules to work a certain way in his own favor and framed his question to the rules judge very,very carefully to get the answer he got. Great job being like that guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Look, I'm not a power gamer, I stopped going to OFCC because I was told it wasn't a power event, and half the teams kept having "Hard" lists. I'm not trying to 'game' the rules on the conclave, either. I just have a flat out different reading of the rules, and you are attributing malice to my reading of the rules. I am reacting in a passive aggressive fashion that I'd rather not, but I feel attacked with your continued insistence that I'm trying to cheat. Didn't realize the link wasn't posted on here, my mistake. It was in the question I filed. http://www.frontlinegaming.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2286 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I have to agree with Infested. If they had wanted the other librarians to not cast they would have either included a caviat that they cannot at ALL cast this phase or they would have said that instead of casting they boost the main dudebro. And I don't even play marines. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I filed it through the actual FAQ Submission Form on the main website as: The SM Librarius Conclave says that other Librarians from the Conclave within 12" of the nominated Psyker cannot manifest powers until the end of the phase. Does this mean that they cannot manifest powers at all that turn, or that they can manifest them, but must do so last in that Psychic Phase. Also, we don't need to cite anything. 40K is, in general, a permission-based Rules set. That is, it doesn't list every single thing you can't do, it just lists the things you can do, unless there's some reason to specifically list a negative (an effect that cancels something that could normally be done, for instance). This means that the burden of proof is on the person who wants to do something, to show that their action is explicitly allowed, because it not being allowed is the default. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I cited proof that "End of phase" is a period in time wherein things happen, per pg 17 of the rule book. Your current argument seems to be that "End of phase" is a duration of time. The rule book does not support what you are saying, so I ask for proof, as I provided proof of what I am saying being true. Is that not a fair request? This isn't a question of permission right here. This is a question of what "End of phase" means, and I say the BRB defines it quite clearly. You guys seem to disagree, so please, show me that the "End of phase" is not what the rule book says it is, as I showed you where it does say what I'm saying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doug_L Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 Also, we don't need to cite anything. 40K is, in general, a permission-based Rules set. That is, it doesn't list every single thing you can't do, it just lists the things you can do, unless there's some reason to specifically list a negative (an effect that cancels something that could normally be done, for instance). This means that the burden of proof is on the person who wants to do something, to show that their action is explicitly allowed, because it not being allowed is the default. That more supports the other side of the argument though. The rules tell us how our psykers work so that should be considered the default case. As the Conclave rules don't really explicitly say that can't use their powers at all in the phase, of if they do say it it's rather roundabout, we should assume that it's business as usual right? Personally I can see both sides here and knowing that if someone were to cast with every librarian in the formation I probably wouldn't mind. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted October 19, 2015 Author Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 And please, Doug, Beau, VV, Jim, Sean, everyone who has read this, please chime in with a "I'm with Team Galarider" or "I agree with IK." Or if you thought it was one way, and either side won you over, please share that, too. This is a forum for discussion, and I'd love to know what more of you lurkers think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted October 19, 2015 Report Share Posted October 19, 2015 I filed it through the actual FAQ Submission Form on the main website as: Your question I think best encapsulates the question presented. As stated, I can see both sides of this argument, I just think the argument you and Galahad are making is more convoluted because it (at face value, IMO) flies in the face of the final sentence of the conclave rule. I just read it like I do the automated weapon rule or other things like it, and, while I can see how you can finagle it to say that they can't cast, it seems to me that it's just an order of operation thing and not a strict restriction. Again, I don't TRULY care, because I don't use wussy psykers or silly beakies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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