Heretic Librarius Conclave and Order of Events

[InfestedKerrigan]

And to be clear, the reason you are just not fielding the khorne daemons as actual allies is because ITC banned come the apocalypse allies, right?

 

In any environment that bans CTA Allies or Unbound, I am unable to take Daemons with my Knights.

 

If I was wanting to "game" this, I'd be looking at summoning more summoners, wouldn't I?

[galahad911]

Your question I think best encapsulates the question presented.  

 

As stated, I can see both sides of this argument, I just think the argument you and Galahad are making is more convoluted because it (at face value, IMO) flies in the face of the final sentence of the conclave rule.  I just read it like I do the automated weapon rule or other things like it, and, while I can see how you can finagle it to say that they can't cast, it seems to me that it's just an order of operation thing and not a strict restriction.  

 

Again, I don't TRULY care, because I don't use wussy psykers or silly beakies.

 

 

I swear, someone who has been playing as long as you have, and been on as many forums, and been in as many rules discussions as you must have by now, I don't understand how you see that sentence and aren't reminded of several rules arguments over the years where the entire point a person was standing on was, "Well, if they meant that, they would have just said that!" I can't even count the number of times I've read that line.

[Guest]

In any environment that bans CTA Allies or Unbound, I am unable to take Daemons with my Knights.

 

If I was wanting to "game" this, I'd be looking at summoning more summoners, wouldn't I?

Not suggesting you want to "game" anything, just trying to understand the context of the point you are trying to make.

 

As mentioned, actual daemon allies are the best for summoning daemons, but you wanted specifically imperium allies and I'm trying to figure out why. I'm not really sure if the above is intended to confirm the desire to field CTA allies within ITC-like events, or if there is some other point.

 

Personally, I think point on that conclave is just going circles, so I'm trying to fill in the blanks related to the stuff that isn't related to it.

 

I also think that those FW chaos knights are mainly better than the imperial knights, so the point found in fielding imperium allies seems very iffy. Perhaps you could explain more?

[WestRider]

I cited proof that "End of phase" is a period in time wherein things happen, per pg 17 of the rule book.  Your current argument seems to be that "End of phase" is a duration of time.  The rule book does not support what you are saying, so I ask for proof, as I provided proof of what I am saying being true.  Is that not a fair request?  This isn't a question of permission right here.  This is a question of what "End of phase" means, and I say the BRB defines it quite clearly.  You guys seem to disagree, so please, show me that the "End of phase" is not what the rule book says it is, as I showed you where it does say what I'm saying.

That's not what I'm saying at all. Honestly, I haven't the slightest idea of what you're talking about with this stuff about the difference between a period or a duration.

 

What I'm saying is that the Start and End of Phase are only for things that are explicitly stated to happen in the Start or End of Phase. That's the whole reason for separating them out as sub-phases like that. If it were phrased as something like "during this Turn, the other Librarians manifest their Psychic Powers at the end of the phase", I would agree with you. But unless explicitly directed to, you can't take Phase actions during the Start or End of Phase sub-phases. Otherwise, I could move my dudes with Teleport Homers up at the Start of the Movement Phase, before my Deep Strikers come in. The only things I can Move at the Start of the Movement Phase are those like Reserves that explicitly state that they Move at the Start of the Movement Phase. Similarly, the only things that could Manifest Psychic Powers at the End of Psychic Phase are those that explicitly state that they Manifest Psychic Powers at the End of the Psychic Phase.

[Guest]

Someone was telling me that the reason these threads get out of hand is that the 40k rules just don't hold up to scrutiny and that's why I shouldn't debate them...a bit late, but I'm done with this one.

 

I hope the ITC answers your questions, because this is going nowhere. Good luck.

[fluger]

I swear, someone who has been playing as long as you have, and been on as many forums, and been in as many rules discussions as you must have by now, I don't understand how you see that sentence and aren't reminded of several rules arguments over the years where the entire point a person was standing on was, "Well, if they meant that, they would have just said that!" I can't even count the number of times I've read that line.

It's true, I don't think either position is airtight, I just think the interpretation presented by IK is more logical and less complex.  I've also been wrong before, so take what I say FWIW. 

 

However, I think it should speak to you that someone who is A. Impartial, B. Been in a lot of rules debates, disagrees with you.  Again, I'm not trying to pull anything, just from looking at the rules presented and the arguments stated, I don't think you have a stronger case than IK.

[InfestedKerrigan]

I feel like if I were reading it wrong, there would be a half dozen or so people saying as much.  Or that if you were playing it wrong, the same thing, we'd have people jumping in saying you were doing it wrong.  This leads me to believe that how I read it is correct, but that people feel that is not how it should be played and there is enough split, that nobody is weighing in.

 

QFT

[InfestedKerrigan]

I get what your saying, WR.  I am of the opinion that "cannot manifest until the end of the phase" is the qualifier telling you that the remaining Librarians manifest when the end of the phase happens. 

[VonVilkee]

I support Fluger's stance based on the discussion

[galahad911]

Pg. 33 of the PDF of the rules I've been using since 7th started....

 

Last paragraph of Generate Warp Charge

 

It, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player

the player whose turn it is has 0 warp charge remaining, the Psychic phase ends. The Psychic

phase also ends if you either cannot, or choose not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the psychic

phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting 

phase begins.

 

So, if the end of the phase is a defined point in time, then this paragraph, in the much more specific psychic phase section of the rule book, tells you what to do during that point in time. In that point in time, all warp charge points are lost, and the Shooting phase begins. That's it. Nothing about manifesting powers or anything else.

[generalripphook]

The end of the phase described the last part of the phase.

 

Beginning Middle End.

 

The psychic phase ends is at the end of the end of the psychic phase.

[VonVilkee]

So we have multiple things happening at the end of the psychic phase. For me the application of the lose the remaining and the other manifestations would be simultaneous and it would be IK turn so he resolves the casting and removal of warp in the order he chooses during the end.

 

Application of rules and along with fluger... Stupid conclave! I don't feel let have solid enough ground three libbies is at least a decent investment of points if not to detrimental...

[WestRider]

But again, like I said before, look at the three conditions for hitting the end of the Psychic Phase in the big Galahad911 posted. You don't go to the end of the Psychic Phase until you can't, or don't want to, manifest any more psychic powers. Manifesting powers after you've just declared that you have no more powers to manifest doesn't make any sense.

 

Also, on the phrasing: In my reading, "until the end of the Psychic Phase" here is just the minimum duration for that restriction that will keep them from manifesting powers that Turn.

 

I kinda feel like we're at the point where both sides have seen all of the opposing argument that there is, and if anyone's not convinced yet, it ain't gonna happen. I'm gonna wait and see if the ITC says anything about it before I drop in here again.

[galahad911]

Yeah, I'm there too.

 

I dropped it into their actual rules question form since their forums are generally dead most times. We'll see if I get a response.

[fluger]

But again, like I said before, look at the three conditions for hitting the end of the Psychic Phase in the big Galahad911 posted. You don't go to the end of the Psychic Phase until you can't, or don't want to, manifest any more psychic powers. Manifesting powers after you've just declared that you have no more powers to manifest doesn't make any sense.

 

And, again, while I agree that you COULD come up with that reading of the rules, I think it's far more likely that they are simply stating that the psykers cast LAST (like automated fire) because if the INTENT was to deny them the ability to cast spells at all, they would've flat out said it instead of forcing us to look up a series of conditions.  

 

 

 

I kinda feel like we're at the point where both sides have seen all of the opposing argument that there is, and if anyone's not convinced yet, it ain't gonna happen.

 

Agreed.  Though, I *do* see your argument.  

[peter.cosgrove]

Umm..

 

The Psychic Phase doesn't end until

 

1. The controlling Player decides he will not cast any more psychic spells

 

2. The Controlling Player runs out of Warp Charge Dice.

 

You have to give up all your warp charge dice once you say you won't declare casting any more psychic spells.

 

So to do what you are trying to do you would have to have more warp dice, then tell your opponent "Ok, I am no longer going to cast any more psychic spells even though I have warp charge points" and then go back on your honor as a player and say, "Oh no, I lied, this rule here says I can continue to cast with the warp charge dice I had to give up when I said I was ending the phase, so I will continue to manifest these psychic powers here"

 

"If after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic Phase ends. The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or CHOOSE not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the Psychic Phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting Phase begins"

 

So the only way the Psychic Phase can end when you still have warp charge points remaining and the ability via a special formation rule to continue casting once you declare you choose not to cast any more spells is when you declare you will not attempt to manifest any more psychic abilities. To then go back on that statement means you are lying to your opponent.

 

My 2c.

[peter.cosgrove]

Also, you can take a Herald of Tzeentch in an Allied detachment with 12 pink horrors which will get you 5 dice cheap. And Heralds can be taken 4 to one HQ slot so you can get 14 dice for 500(ish) points and summoning perils on only double sixes.

[fluger]

stuff

 

That is the crux of their argument, the crux of my argument is that GW wasn't specifically referencing the End of Psychic Phase and was intending it to mean casting last.  Otherwise, it would've been far easier to simply state other librarians cannot cast. 

[peter.cosgrove]

ya? but remember they had to go back in and rewrite things so you did everything in the psychic phase and no other powers at any other time. That's why all the FAQ's on teleportation and overwatch.

[fluger]

Again, if the intent was to not let other psykers cast, why include the "at the end of the psychic phase" line.  They could've left it off and simply stated Any psyker in range cannot cast. 

 

I think it's more plain text reading to treat it like automated fire or other things that are forced to happen at the end of the phase instead of following the protocols you are saying. 

[VonVilkee]

Umm..

 

The Psychic Phase doesn't end until

 

1. The controlling Player decides he will not cast any more psychic spells

 

2. The Controlling Player runs out of Warp Charge Dice.

 

You have to give up all your warp charge dice once you say you won't declare casting any more psychic spells.

 

So to do what you are trying to do you would have to have more warp dice, then tell your opponent "Ok, I am no longer going to cast any more psychic spells even though I have warp charge points" and then go back on your honor as a player and say, "Oh no, I lied, this rule here says I can continue to cast with the warp charge dice I had to give up when I said I was ending the phase, so I will continue to manifest these psychic powers here"

 

"If after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player whose turn it is has 0 Warp Charge points remaining, the Psychic Phase ends. The Psychic phase also ends if you either cannot, or CHOOSE not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the Psychic Phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting Phase begins"

 

So the only way the Psychic Phase can end when you still have warp charge points remaining and the ability via a special formation rule to continue casting once you declare you choose not to cast any more spells is when you declare you will not attempt to manifest any more psychic abilities. To then go back on that statement means you are lying to your opponent.

 

My 2c.

On phone... Just before your bold piece, it says cannot...

I have three warp charge left. The nominated psyker has cast all the powers available to him, due to the restriction the other two cannot cast as it is during the psychic phase, the psychic phase now ends. The other two cast their powers and I lose warp charge in the order I chose as it is my turn... Also works if I choose not to cast any more worth the nominated as I cannot cast with the others till later.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Also, you can take a Herald of Tzeentch in an Allied detachment with 12 pink horrors which will get you 5 dice cheap. And Heralds can be taken 4 to one HQ slot so you can get 14 dice for 500(ish) points and summoning perils on only double sixes.

 

No CTA Allies, as far as it relating to list building.  Thanks for the suggestion that.  Pretty nasty 500 points, though.  

[warprat]

Personally, I wonder why GW even allows imperials to summon deamons at all.   But, thinking back to various books, inquisitors have been known to dabble in the back arts to one degree or the other.   Also, the Soul Drinkers space marine chapter went down the slippery slope with mutations and whatnot.  So, maybe there is a place for it on the tabletop.

 

So far, I am with IK on this one.  But I hope he is wrong.  Hopefully the ITC will have something to say that makes sense.

[fluger]

But, thinking back to various books, inquisitors have been known to dabble in the back arts to one degree or the other.   

 

"Cherubael?"

"Yessssssssssssssss?"

"Kill."

[warprat]

Love that series!

 

After thinking about it some more...  I think it would be fun to summon "Angelic Hosts" in the form of angels, Valkyries, war dogs or whatever.   Just use the daemon stats with alternate figures.  There have to be some good guys out there in the warp.