Pandora - Mark is right :)

[orkdork]

6 games with Pandora now, and I'm totally convinced: voices is way better than the box opens. It's not even close.

 

Thanks, Mark! Pandora is a blast to play!

[Mach_5]

Now you know the POWER of the dark side. ;)

[McNathanson]

I think she's really good but I still think it's that skanky whoore biatch Doppleganger and her cheating initiative that makes things so tough to handle.

[dkieft]

I think she's really good but I still think it's that skanky whoore biatch Doppleganger and her cheating initiative that makes things so tough to handle.

Pretty much initiative cheats are the bomb.

[McNathanson]

Pretty much initiative cheats are the bomb.

 

Personally (and maybe I'm just being sour grapes) but I think that Init is a mechanic that should have been left alone, just to keep players honest.  When you can out-activate and go in, do a bunch of damage, and then auto-win initiative (for all intents) and go AGAIN, it's kinda dumb.  So far it's the only mechanic I find obnoxious in the whole game, is cheating init.  But I'll live with it because the rest of the game is SO GOOD!! :)

[dkieft]

Personally (and maybe I'm just being sour grapes) but I think that Init is a mechanic that should have been left alone, just to keep players honest.  When you can out-activate and go in, do a bunch of damage, and then auto-win initiative (for all intents) and go AGAIN, it's kinda dumb.  So far it's the only mechanic I find obnoxious in the whole game, is cheating init.  But I'll live with it because the rest of the game is SO GOOD!! :)

Yeah,I felt that way too until I had a model that could do it...

[McNathanson]

Yeah,I felt that way too until I had a model that could do it...

If you can't beat 'em! :)

[orkdork]

Pandora continues to be a beast.

 

My core list right now is:

Pandora, voices, aether, wings

Primordial

Nekima

Doppelganger

Lilitu

 

Lots of great options to fill it out, such as:

Johan

Graves

Coppie

Waldgeist

Silurid

Madness

Tots

Effigy

 

So far, Joel's resurrectionists are really struggling to not get wrecked, and his Leveticus crew can't handle my mobility.

 

I haven't played vs Sonnia yet with this build. I did lose spectacularly to Sonnia with the crew box stuff, none of which I use anymore.

 

At this point, I think Lilith vs Pandora is really about the board, not the S&S.

 

The dreamer remains my reconnoiter dude :)

[Mach_5]

What does Joel have for ressers?

[orkdork]

First off, I just found a big nerf to my crew in the November FAQ, which now disallows luring past a model. This makes it way harder for me to lure boost Nekima and Pandora like I was doing. So my crew may be a fair amount weaker now. 4-5" less movement on the turn 1 Nekima alpha is huge.

 

 

As far as Joel's crew, he has basically the full range of Horrors, and some of the spirits (though not nearly as many).

 

His masters are Molly (his strongest so far), Seamus and Nicodem (his weakest so far).

 

Molly seems to have a particularly nasty matchup vs. Pandora, since Pandora and easily kill Killjoy with his own cleaver, and can paralyze-chain Molly very effectively. Otherwise, Joel has been doing very well with Molly.

 

Seamus is his least played, and probably deserves more attention. We haven't done Seamus vs. Pandora yet.

 

Nicodem seemed hopeless. His corpse engine can't possibly pay for itself before I'm all over him, killing his dudes and chain-paralyzing Nico. It is just ugly :(

[orkdork]

So just an update, the lure nerf didn't change too much. I still build around that same core, and it still seems heads and shoulders above the pack.

 

I have played Lilith once since getting Pandora, and only because it was headhunter. And frankly, I am not even convinced that she does that strat better than pandora.

 

Nekima and pandora have so much synergy, it is insane. Together, they can wipe whole crews. And if the cards go poorly, Dopple init cheat, incite and lures can pull them both to safety before any serious retaliation.

 

I would be really curious what crews would give me fits. I am sure they are out there.

[Mach_5]

I like how you thought Lilith was the bomb before giving Pandora a shot and now you can't go back. ;)

 

If you can't lose it's time to try and break something new! :)

[orkdork]

I should also mention that with 7s on the attacks and a draw 10 hand, the cards rarely go poorly.

[orkdork]

Yeah, I tried Dreamer, but I play him too slowly still. He seems super strong as well.

 

My Dora crew is almost painted, too, so it is hard not to play her. I plan on painting my Colette crew next.

[orkdork]

I like how you thought Lilith was the bomb before giving Pandora a shot and now you can't go back. ;)

Yeah, this comes up a lot. Once again, Mark and Dan >>> internet :)

[McNathanson]

If you can't lose it's time to try and break something new! :)

 

Ahem... just to keep things in context, Pandora's won a handful games in a row against me (mostly with me playing intentionally weaker crews e.g. no Austringers), and with the last two wins consisting of:

 

game 1: Pandora pushes into Sonnia's soulstone suppression bubble, realizes her mistake, nearly concedes on the spot, and then plays on and survives my Turn 2 attack with 2 life left only by virtue of cheating a Red Joker defensive cheat vs. Francisco's final attack, which would have killed her otherwise (I had cheated a 13) and been an easy wipe out for my crew.

 

game 2: Nekima flips Red Joker damage against Perdita on turn 1 and kills her before she fires a shot, and then my counterattack kills Pandora on Turn 3 but too late to come back.

 

So, hardly a puzzle worth considering "solved" or by any means even "explored and found confounding".  I *am* convinced that 1) Pandora is very tough, and 2) that Neverborn have some amazing models (Doppleganger, Nekima, for example).  I also think Pandora is one of those masters - like Sonnia - who requires her opponent to play around her abilities, rather than just "doing their own thing".  

 

Other than that, we're still very much in the learning phase and hardly ready to conclude that any master or crew is dominant... after all, just a month ago there was a similar (incorrect) opinion about Lilith being OP.  Turns out, Lilith is very good, but one big strength is that she frees you up from having to think about rules (like LoS and terrain and Malifaux) which makes her easy to win with for newbs.  I'm sure we'll find Pandora is better long term (based on your experienced opinion Mark), but I'm not even close to convinced that our matchups are settling out.

 

For example after 10-ish games against her, I'm already far less worried about Incite than I used to be, having learned to play around it just like Micah had to learn to play around Austringers and Sonnia blasts etc.  And I'm playing with some build changes that will put the activation count back in my favor, and prevent the end-of-turn Alpha followed by init cheat Alpha at the start of the next turn, without which Nekima is far less scary.

 

We have a lot of playing left to do before drawing conclusions, IMO.

[Mach_5]

That sounds more like it! I will say I don't think Pandora is hands down better than Lilith. In a lot of ways I think Lilith is better. But in a Lilith vs Pandora match, I'd put money on Pandora who can easily paralyze her and hit Lilith with her own sword. Granted crews and schemes would come in to it but with the same hiring pool and flexibility I'd say Pandora wins that fight most of the time.

[McNathanson]

I do think the Ca 7 Paralyze is pretty damn rough, especially when it can be combined with Incite to prevent the Paralyze from being removed in time.

 

My best defenses against it so far are a) Perdita's stubborn (Os Veo) and Aura Ancestral (buffing the Wp of the rest of the crew) and b) hoping he doesn't have high Crow cheat cards ;)  

 

I have been running some Witchling Stalkers and they help a little, but I need more activations to really make condition removal meaningful, and I'm addicted to that damn Emissary and Francisco pair which costs ~21SS together and really cramps my activation count.  I need to let go of them, and get back into activation lead - it makes SO much difference in a game involving Doppleganger init-cheat.

 

Mark, you might have a larger meta so that trying to "one up" activation count doesn't really come into consideration... but have you experienced that arms race phenomenon, of getting more and more activations in the crew?  Right now the difference between 8 or 9 activations and 10 or 11 is the difference between getting Paralyze/Incited or getting to remove the Paralyze before the next turn.  Pretty huge impact, but I've been resisting the "building back and forth to get the +1 activation edge" thing, as it seems kinda janky :)

 

[Mach_5]

Different meta altogether, and I would say I play only rarely and usually with and against crews I'm unfamiliar with, so I'm typically in a "see what these crews do" mentality rather than a fine-tuning tournament lists mentality. And I haven't really had to play against Pandora myself.

 

Activation control is big and having more models is obviously a benefit, but it's really Pandora that punishes you for too few models; like you said you can't react to incite/paralyze as well and each paralyze is affecting a larger % of your crew.

 

In some matches like Reckoning I'll often take few elite models, only 4-5 models, and try to shut my opponent out of the strategy. The opposite had to happen in a reconnoiter match where you need bodies to claim quarters. For me it's more dependent on strategy/schemes than opponent, especially since you don't usually know what your opponent is taking. In your situation, you know Micah is taking Pandora and probably which minions he's taking so that really changes the way you both build your crews.

[Marcalla]

That sounds more like it! I will say I don't think Pandora is hands down better than Lilith. In a lot of ways I think Lilith is better. But in a Lilith vs Pandora match, I'd put money on Pandora who can easily paralyze her and hit Lilith with her own sword. Granted crews and schemes would come in to it but with the same hiring pool and flexibility I'd say Pandora wins that fight most of the time.

 

Pandora certainly has a much better time of it this edition. Previously it was alot easier to single out Pandora or other key components of crews without leaving yourself exposed. Now you have to leave a model in the others place. But aside from that I really like putting Pandora in the middle of a triangle of medium minion/enforcer tanks while I beat on her, That way she can't "scoot out". The look on a pandora's player when they realize there is not squeeky escape route is priceless.

[McNathanson]

Entrapping her is definitely a big part of taking her down, especially with Ml attacks.  Easier said than done against a good player.  But Enfrentate a Mi works very well for doing it, especially if you start with EaM from the Emissary, then unload Francisco and Companion to him!  Pretty good way to box her in.

My problem with doing the "surround" thing is that you are setting yourself up for her Pulse attack, Black Blood from Nekima, and Nekima's Teach Them Fear.  So you need to be very careful how many models you throw into her vicinity in an attempt to trap her.  The look on Pandora's opponent's face, when they realize they've set up their own crew for about 5 rounds of Wp and Terror duels, is also priceless ;)

The other factor that's key is suppressing SS damage prevention, as her +1 dmg prevented upgrade is quite difficult to power through even for a hitty crew like Guild.  

 

Personally, I believe that in a crew with Nekima at least, it's better to focus on Nekima and Doppleganger if you can, and try to weather the Incites and Paralyzes as best you can, rather than pouring your entire crew into trying to bring down Pandora while Nekima and Doppleganger (using Nekima's sword, for example) kills everyone :)  She's a much harder-to-kill model than those two, and no more deadly (less so than Nekima).

 

Put it this way: if I were playing Pandora, I'd *love* to see my opponent using all his AP and cheat hand trying to bring down my 7Df/Wp, +1SS damage preventing, pushing out of engagement, flying, Paralyzing, Inciting Master.  Have fun killing one of the most difficult to kill models in my faction, while my crew wins me the game :)

 

That said if she oversteps, I'm going to try to gank her, cuz she's damn powerful offensively, too :)

[orkdork]

Just a reminder, my op is that voices >>> box opens, not pandora uber alles.

[Marcalla]

Also worth noting that a Push is a direct line. So the Area pulses can be mitigated by a staggared containment.

 

But in your situation with nekima as well I'd probably look for the opportune target. Lilith's lack of need for LoS makes it very difficult for "linchpin" models to stay out of threat.

 

Malifaux is as much if not more about breaking your opponents synergy.

[Brother Glacius]

so to beat pandora, you need to "box" her in *wink wink*