Competitive War convocation without drop pods

[AgentP]

I have a war convocation army painted. I brought it to this last OFCC. I'd love to field it in competitive events, but I have a problem with drop pods. Help me make the most competitive list I can without drop pods. You can correctly assum that I have plenty of units and models for all the mechanicus. Do I go with the second knight, fortification, some allies, robots, larger unit sizes ?

[AbusePuppy]

So the big problem with not running Drop Pods- and the reason almost everyone does run them- is that they allow you to get those slow, foot-bound Skitarii and AdMech units into range. Without using Drop Pods, or Rhinos, or some other shenanigan you're going to need to be REALLY good at anticipating the enemy's deployment in order to function effectively, and even that won't help against someone who is long-ranged/fast enough to avoid the majority of your units.

 

A fortification isn't terribly likely to solve your problems because of the short ranges of many of those units. It can potentially have uses, but in and of itself it won't be enough (especially not since the change to how they are deployed in 7E.)

 

Knights are good and can give you some long-range fire support, but that alone won't be enough.

 

My question for you would essentially boil down to "what are you willing to accept"? You're going to need either transports, a consistent way to get Infiltrate (i.e. Lias Issodon), or some other kind of fancy trickery if you want to have a chance in competitive environments. Well, that's not wholly accurate- War Convocation is good enough that you could compete with some stuff using it and could no doubt win local-sized events on the back of good generalship and the raw power of the formation alone, but if you want to be going to Guardian Cup, TSHFT, and other multi-day events and having a chance of taking home prizes you're going to need something more than that.

[AgentP]

Would any of the new IG formations give me a viable transport alternative to pods?

[PourSpelur]

Like Valkyries? I believe so.

[PourSpelur]

Emperor's Spear!

[pretre]

Would any of the new IG formations give me a viable transport alternative to pods?

There's one that gives you 3 units of Valks/Vendettas with no scatter disembark.

[AgentP]

I don't have the dex with me, are destroyers bulky, or very bulky?

[AgentP]

Very bulky. Damn

[AgentP]

So the big problem with not running Drop Pods- and the reason almost everyone does run them- is that they allow you to get those slow, foot-bound Skitarii and AdMech units into range

So, I apologize for not being very tactical. I need some more explaining. The Skitt troops are short ranged and fragile, I agree 100%. But it seems most people are using the pods for grav destroyers, which are 30" + 6"(if they move). I don't see how they need pods to bring their threat to bear.

[pretre]

So, I apologize for not being very tactical. I need some more explaining. The Skitt troops are short ranged and fragile, I agree 100%. But it seems most people are using the pods for grav destroyers, which are 30" + 6"(if they move). I don't see how they need pods to bring their threat to bear.

LOS and the ability to kill your opponent without getting hit first.

[BrainFireBob]

I don't know, AP- an Imperial Defense network with a pair of bunkers upgraded with escape hatches might provide something.

[winterman]

Yeah its the alpha potential and range and LOS is an issue for Kataphrons -- consider the things they tend to counter (wraithknights, riptides, cent stars) are mobile and/or long ranged enough to kite them for a while.  And they are fragile enough to be dealt with before they are a major threat.  Plus once you add pods you open up using the Culexus in a pod as well.

 

I am of the same mind as you though - I am working on a Convocation that doesn't use pods.  And trying to make it still competitive.

 

One idea was using Inquisition and their old school chimeras (eg 5 fire points).  Can't start out in the chimera but once inside provides a bit of protection and some extra mobility in a pinch.  Drop pod is better, but still a nice option.  I also like the idea of modelling a Magos Biologos as a Xeno Inquisitor and getting rad grenades and servo skulls in an army that scouts and has a unit that also reduces T by 1 seems decent enough.  But getting Coteaz is probably the more competitive option.

 

Also thinking running two knights might be fun. Hard to get two shooty ones in at 1850 though.  But the buffs knights get in convocation, getting more seems like it is competitive to me, even if its two choppy knights

[pretre]

I don't know, AP- an Imperial Defense network with a pair of bunkers upgraded with escape hatches might provide something.

A lot of competitive events don't allow defense networks.

[AgentP]

The day they allow trench networks is the day I break out my greatcoat World War I guard army and never look back

[Chappy]

The day they allow trench networks is the day I break out my greatcoat World War I guard army and never look back

I wholeheartedly encourage these, and any other fluff based/cosplay shenanigans.

Carry on.

[AbusePuppy]

So, I apologize for not being very tactical. I need some more explaining. The Skitt troops are short ranged and fragile, I agree 100%. But it seems most people are using the pods for grav destroyers, which are 30" + 6"(if they move). I don't see how they need pods to bring their threat to bear.

 

30" is a decent range, but it's only slightly more than basic trooper weapons- and Kataphrons have only 4+ armor to defend them. What that means in practice is that if the enemy has the first turn, they will shoot them to death before you can do anything (because it's not likely you can hide them out of LOS and also within their weapon range) and if you have the first turn, the enemy will deploy 37" away and then shoot them to death on their own turn.

 

Drop Pods are also important for the Rangers/Vanguard on the Skitarii side of things, too, not to mention the odd Culexus Assassin, Ruststalkers, or Infiltrators.

 

The IG formation with three units of Valkyries has some potential, but what it does mean you're more reliant on reserve rolls and spending a lot more points on things (~140pts per transport rather than 35, albeit without an HQ/Troop tax.)

[wildcat]

I have never had much problem with them being slow. 6-9 inch scout move for skitarii at the beginning. Also 3 skitarii move, run, charge with +3 inches, one of those units can infiltrate. The knight moves up to 12". Never saw the need to bring drop pods or any transports. Just bring more skitarii.

[AbusePuppy]

I've played against foot Skitarii before; they usually fold up and die the first time anything with a 36" weapon looks at them, because they aren't that fast or that tough and certainly not that numerous. You can't afford to spend three full turns just trying to close with the enemy before you can do anything, especially not if the other guy can just spend one turn jetting to the other side of the board like Eldar Jetbikes or Centstar can.

[AgentP]

So you seem convinced that there is one - and only one - AdMech build, and it is the War Convocation allying in the Flesh Terror drop pods.  Maybe you're correct, but I'm not yet inclined to dismiss alternatives.  I have to think that there is some other build out there.  Maybe abandon the War Convocation entirely?  The Cohort Cybernetica has always looks interesting, and certainly could make a solid death star to build around (although slow).  And the Holy Requisitioner with it's deep striking breachers might have value.

[pretre]

So you seem convinced that there is one - and only one - AdMech build, and it is the War Convocation allying in the Flesh Terror drop pods.  Maybe you're correct, but I'm not yet inclined to dismiss alternatives.  I have to think that there is some other build out there.  Maybe abandon the War Convocation entirely?  The Cohort Cybernetica has always looks interesting, and certainly could make a solid death star to build around (although slow).  And the Holy Requisitioner with it's deep striking breachers might have value.

You can certainly get along with other ideas. We were talking about Vendettas earlier as well. You could use other drop pod sources or other books that let you get transports.

[AbusePuppy]

So you seem convinced that there is one - and only one - AdMech build, and it is the War Convocation allying in the Flesh Terror drop pods.

 

If you're trying to go fully-competitive? Yeah. There's typically only one "best build" of anything, that's hardly unique to the Convocation.

 

You could also potentially use FT (or some other Marine variant) to bring in Rhinos or other transports- I don't think it would be as good, but it could still be quite functional and have some advantages of its own.

 

Below that you could run Lias Issodon, or a fort network (if the tourney allows it), or some other way to forward-deploy to essentially the same effect.

 

But my point is that, if you're trying to make a list that is competitive at GT-level tournaments (which is to say multi-day events) you can't just be wandering about on foot. You'll get outranged, outmaneuvered, and cut to pieces.

 

Now, if you're looking for a less-competitive list (you don't care about your chances of taking the top tables, you're only looking to go to single-day events, etc) then there's other ways you can build the army- but that's not the question you asked me, so that wasn't the answer I gave.

 

Cohort Cybernetica definitely has some potential as a "centerpiece" to a list, advancing into midfield and holding it while the rest of the list worked around that assumption. I've toyed with the idea a few times, but it would depend on what else you wanted to fill the list out with- however, since both AdMech and Skitarii have pretty limited unit selections, you'd probably be wanting to make use of other factions to shore up their weaknesses. That's one of the big strengths of the War Convocation that a lot of people miss- with units from three factions, it actually manages to fill a lot of its own gaps automatically.

[AgentP]

OK let's build around the cohort. What would be the most competitive thing we could do to support a cohort deathstar? Every ally and unit is up for consideration, no limits.

 

I'm a big believer that novelty of lists counts for something. If your opponent hasn't seen something that's a plus. And I don't think anyone is running the cohort currently.

[winterman]

OK let's build around the cohort. What would be the most competitive thing we could do to support a cohort deathstar? Every ally and unit is up for consideration, no limits.

 

I'm a big believer that novelty of lists counts for something. If your opponent hasn't seen something that's a plus. And I don't think anyone is running the cohort currently.

Personally?  I'd want Lais Issadon for infiltration or an Inquisitor with the book for scout.  You want that cohort mid table ASAP.  After that depends on whether you want full deathstar mode (so getting hit and run via Cypher or White Scars, psychers) or whether you want less star and more support.

[AgentP]

Issadon I'm not familiar with. I don't have the forgrworld books. The inquisitor would be nice, due to the low buy in and lack of tax. But either could work. I agree that infiltrate or scout on the robots would be essential. I think some psychic presence is essential as well. Then the question is what to best support?

[winterman]

Issadon I'm not familiar with. I don't have the forgrworld books. 

No need to have the books.  Badab war is so far out of print they just post up PDFs.  All you need is in the two links below (first has his rules, second one has his Raptor chapter tactics -- those and the SM book is all you need):

 

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forge_World_Space_Marine_Badab_Characters_V2.pdf

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/resources/fw_site/fw_pdfs/Warhammer_40000/Forge_World_Space_Marine_Chapter_Tactics_V2.pdf

 

His claim to fame is he comes with the strategic warlord trait Master of Ambush -- so gets to give 3 units infiltrate.  He has a ton of other tricks, but for Cohort that is the main deal.