Painted Models Only / WYSIWYG Only

[splinx]

You may of seen even at the charity event i recently did that the guys that didn't fully paint their armies did not get as much as the rest of the guys as far as loot goes. Dependent on the tournament it can be hard to enforce it. If the Extra-life tourney wasn't for charity i would have no problem turning people away or not allowing units to be played as they weren't painted. If it was a general non charity tourney i would fully support the fully painted idea and penalize anyone who just turns up with sprue grey colored armies.

 

Personally it takes me months to get an army together fully painted, converted and looking good and i would love to go to non competitive tourneys that support fully painted armies to game with. I also don't think its fair when folks spent so long painting and working on their armies to be treated the same as someone who purely glues stuff together and runs with it. 

 

Just my 2 cents! 

[Lord Hanaur]

You may of seen even at the charity event i recently did that the guys that didn't fully paint their armies did not get as much as the rest of the guys as far as loot goes. Dependent on the tournament it can be hard to enforce it. If the Extra-life tourney wasn't for charity i would have no problem turning people away or not allowing units to be played as they weren't painted. If it was a general non charity tourney i would fully support the fully painted idea and penalize anyone who just turns up with sprue grey colored armies.

 

Personally it takes me months to get an army together fully painted, converted and looking good and i would love to go to non competitive tourneys that support fully painted armies to game with. I also don't think its fair when folks spent so long painting and working on their armies to be treated the same as someone who purely glues stuff together and runs with it. 

 

Just my 2 cents! 

Unfortunately painting requirements have stopped me from attending major events.  Three colors is one thing but it they actually GRADE it as part of the scoring?  I'm a dead duck with most of my work (Its improved substantially on armies like my Grey Knights and Militarum Tempestus, plus my Tau Empire are seeing the beginnings of a makeover now and my Sisters of Battle are "adequate" if i use my older lists but incomplete if I use my newer ones for 6E/7E).

 

So there's that also.  I just have so many forces that it's a real trick to bring a good version of it and have that version all be painted.  Three colors though seems like anyone can do that even if they just base paint it from a can, paint the weapons and add a stripe, you know what I mean?  Lol.  We're not talking the weeks and weeks of commitment to formally finish one.

[pretre]

Unfortunately painting requirements have stopped me from attending major events.  Three colors is one thing but it they actually GRADE it as part of the scoring?  I'm a dead duck with most of my work (Its improved substantially on armies like my Grey Knights and Militarum Tempestus, plus my Tau Empire are seeing the beginnings of a makeover now and my Sisters of Battle are "adequate" if i use my older lists but incomplete if I use my newer ones for 6E/7E).

 

So there's that also.  I just have so many forces that it's a real trick to bring a good version of it and have that version all be painted.  Three colors though seems like anyone can do that even if they just base paint it from a can, paint the weapons and add a stripe, you know what I mean?  Lol.  We're not talking the weeks and weeks of commitment to formally finish one.

I don't think a lot of major events use paint scoring as part of the scoring except for Best Overall/Best Painted, which you aren't going to get anyways if your painting is sub-par. What we're talking about is that 3 color requirement.

 

Are there any events where Paint is scored and part of the scoring beyond best paint/overall?

[Lord Hanaur]

Well... what do you mean "besides" that.  Best Overall is the goal in a competition and holds the greatest prize generally.  

 

So if the painting is being used for Best Overall, then its a discouragement (for me and my limited skills) while if its separate its an encouragement (because i can slowly get my skills up to compete for it without feeling it has turned me into a donor).  I have a stack of "Best Generals" TWICE as high as my stack of wins for Best Overall.  Paint.  I think my point is, going 5-0 and coming in 8th stinks.  Lol.  I would know.

 

There was a fellow here locally who got Best Overall with a 1-2 record not quite two years ago.  Travis Walthal aka "Waffles" did it.  Frustrating for those who actually competed successfully. And he took Best Paint, Best Sportsmanship AND Best Overall because a) he was running the event and chose not to be prize ineligible and b) had ruled beforehand that you can win multiple awards, thus nearly ensuring that Best Overall would walk away with almost all of the prize support.  Not an awesome move but it happened.

 

There is a school of thought at tournaments that 1/3 sports. and 1/3 paint and 1/3 battle points is the way to look at the top prize.  It's been that way for a long time, though admittedly it has become less frequent s people come to realize it makes the hobby a bit less accessible to the newer guys and returning guys.

 

I always separate the awards for that reason.  Just makes sense to let people who just came to get games in and get some comradery have as much reason to be there for as the guy whose good at the game or the guy who paints all the time and just likes showing off (and why wouldn't he?).  If everyone has a reason to come, more people come.  TA DA! 

[Gorgosaurusrex]

There was a fellow here locally who got Best Overall with a 1-2 record not quite two years ago.  Travis Walthal aka "Waffles" did it.  Frustrating for those who actually competed successfully. And he took Best Paint, Best Sportsmanship AND Best Overall because a) he was running the event and chose not to be prize ineligible and b) had ruled beforehand that you can win multiple awards, thus nearly ensuring that Best Overall would walk away with almost all of the prize support.  Not an awesome move but it happened.

 

I was at that tournament. I wasn't too happy about the results. I think I was one of the 3-0 players (I know several went undefeated).

[Lord Hanaur]

I was at that tournament. I wasn't too happy about the results. I think I was one of the 3-0 players (I know several went undefeated).

Matt and i also I think.  It was a good turnout.  We had like 16 players there I think.  It was really unfortunate.

[WestRider]

But if painting isn't being used for Best Overall, then it's not really Best Overall, is it? It's just Best General.

[splinx]

Well... what do you mean "besides" that.  Best Overall is the goal in a competition and holds the greatest prize generally.  

 

So if the painting is being used for Best Overall, then its a discouragement (for me and my limited skills) while if its separate its an encouragement (because i can slowly get my skills up to compete for it without feeling it has turned me into a donor).  I have a stack of "Best Generals" TWICE as high as my stack of wins for Best Overall.  Paint.  I think my point is, going 5-0 and coming in 8th stinks.  Lol.  I would know.

 

There was a fellow here locally who got Best Overall with a 1-2 record not quite two years ago.  Travis Walthal aka "Waffles" did it.  Frustrating for those who actually competed successfully. And he took Best Paint, Best Sportsmanship AND Best Overall because a) he was running the event and chose not to be prize ineligible and b) had ruled beforehand that you can win multiple awards, thus nearly ensuring that Best Overall would walk away with almost all of the prize support.  Not an awesome move but it happened.

 

There is a school of thought at tournaments that 1/3 sports. and 1/3 paint and 1/3 battle points is the way to look at the top prize.  It's been that way for a long time, though admittedly it has become less frequent s people come to realize it makes the hobby a bit less accessible to the newer guys and returning guys.

 

I always separate the awards for that reason.  Just makes sense to let people who just came to get games in and get some comradery have as much reason to be there for as the guy whose good at the game or the guy who paints all the time and just likes showing off (and why wouldn't he?).  If everyone has a reason to come, more people come.  TA DA! 

 

So my point of view being totally non competitive, i purely look at the hobby as a way of rolling dice, smiling and immersing my self into the world I'm playing in. As a very minor TO as you have experienced i use the 100% Sportsmanship with the minor requirement for entry of having the stuff painted. It doesn't have to be Eavy Metal quality just an effort to get some paint put on the models and based with some sort of theme going down. In no way will i ever knock anyone for trying to paint their stuff and learning as they do so. This should be rewarded chance entry into the tourney. Doing a tournament this way has made me run out of space, turn people away and potentially have to find somewhere else to hold it next year. I know holding a tourney like this is unusual but for the longevity of the hobby I hope more non competitive tournaments start to appear and encourage more folks into a hobby that is pretty damn great.  

[splinx]

Also i would put it out there that tournament organizers shouldn't be a player in the tourney and if they are they forgo all prizes, entitlements etc and are there purely to make up there numbers. That would suck as a player being in that tourney! 

[pretre]

Well... what do you mean "besides" that.  Best Overall is the goal in a competition and holds the greatest prize generally.  

 

So if the painting is being used for Best Overall, then its a discouragement (for me and my limited skills) while if its separate its an encouragement (because i can slowly get my skills up to compete for it without feeling it has turned me into a donor).  I have a stack of "Best Generals" TWICE as high as my stack of wins for Best Overall.  Paint.  I think my point is, going 5-0 and coming in 8th stinks.  Lol.  I would know.

 

There is a school of thought at tournaments that 1/3 sports. and 1/3 paint and 1/3 battle points is the way to look at the top prize.  It's been that way for a long time, though admittedly it has become less frequent s people come to realize it makes the hobby a bit less accessible to the newer guys and returning guys.

 

I always separate the awards for that reason.  Just makes sense to let people who just came to get games in and get some comradery have as much reason to be there for as the guy whose good at the game or the guy who paints all the time and just likes showing off (and why wouldn't he?).  If everyone has a reason to come, more people come.  TA DA! 

Best Overall should be the sum of Sports, Paint and Generalship. I'm not sure what kind of event would have it otherwise. Sorry if that is a discouragement. I'm not sure why you want a Best Overall without painting. If you want an award for Best General, you should have it, and as far as I know every event has one.

 

Either way, this is completely beside the point of the thread. The thread is about the minimum painting/WYSIWYG requirement to show up. I.e. Three Colors Base, Based and Representative.

[pretre]

Also i would put it out there that tournament organizers shouldn't be a player in the tourney and if they are they forgo all prizes, entitlements etc and are there purely to make up there numbers. That would suck as a player being in that tourney! 

This is true. The only time I have seen this be okay is when judging/sports/etc is run by a council so no one person has power over everything and can win it all as well.

[CaptainA]

You trying to start somefin Pretre! Huh? Got some beef?!? Well I got some Pastrami for ya! 

 

All joking aside, this is such a hard thing for me. I'm a people pleaser by nature and don't like confrontation. I have a 3 color painting requirement to get cash prizes - so prizes awarded because of best general, paint, sports, overall, and raffle. But you can still participate. Each time though, I typically get a guy that says "are you sure?" and it is hard to say no.

 

I personally like it because this is more than just a competitive game and having painted armies on the field is mo bettah.

[pretre]

You trying to start somefin Pretre! Huh? Got some beef?!? Well I got some Pastrami for ya! 

 

All joking aside, this is such a hard thing for me. I'm a people pleaser by nature and don't like confrontation. I have a 3 color painting requirement to get cash prizes - so prizes awarded because of best general, paint, sports, overall, and raffle. But you can still participate. Each time though, I typically get a guy that says "are you sure?" and it is hard to say no.

 

I personally like it because this is more than just a competitive game and having painted armies on the field is mo bettah.

I ain't beefin'. :)

 

I totally get your side of it though.

[winterman]

All joking aside, this is such a hard thing for me. I'm a people pleaser by nature and don't like confrontation. I have a 3 color painting requirement to get cash prizes - so prizes awarded because of best general, paint, sports, overall, and raffle. But you can still participate. Each time though, I typically get a guy that says "are you sure?" and it is hard to say no.

 

I personally like it because this is more than just a competitive game and having painted armies on the field is mo bettah.

Totally relate here.  Booting someone from an event, especially someone who drove hours and hours and is staying overnight in a hotel and such, it just is not something anyone wants to do.  

 

And TOs honestly rarely make the hard call and boot someone.  I don't think I have ever seen it happen, even against blatant offenders at large GW events and the like. And lately most big events have dropped the requirement all together, favoring the no awards policy.  Which I dunno, that is something of a deterrent but doesn't address the reason there's a requirement in the first place.

 

The requirements are there for a reason.  Not everyone travels to just play 5 games and win.  It is the total experience.  To some degree it really is a sportsmanship thing, it is respect for the other guy across from you who came to the event to play against 5+ painted armies.  We can all get games against unpainted stuff any day of the week.  GT events are suppose to be special.

 

That said, I also totally relate to the stragglers.  I am a procrastinator, a slow painter, and have gamer ADD.  The current release schedule and often times lack of model availability make it tough to have an army ready for competitive play.  So I don't say the things above from some high horse -- totally get why folks might try and skirt the rules.

 

To the question though, honestly even though we (eg Storm and Harvester) require painting and have rules against proxies and such we have been fairly lax of late and have allowed several players to get by without really meeting the requirements or truly getting our approval for a questionable counts as.  We made the calls to allow them, for various reasons, right or wrong, but going forward I don't know.  We much prefer to require painting but with people continuing to skirt the rules it may not make a lot of sense.  I am frankly tired of being forced to play a game of chicken every event and wish people would just have some integrity -- but then again if we don't enforce the rules then who lacks the integrity?

 

Sucks, wish people would just paint their stuff.

[pretre]

Sucks, wish people would just paint their stuff.

Agreed!

[fluger]

I hate painting and love events that don't require it.  If I never had to paint to go to OFCC I would never paint any of my armies.  

[pretre]

I hate painting and love events that don't require it.  If I never had to paint to go to OFCC I would never paint any of my armies.  

Yuck

[fluger]

For serious.  I hate painting.  I love painted armies, but it's a chore I do like cleaning gutters or patching holes in my driveway. 

[Swan-of-War]

Your stuff looks good though

[Blustorm]

For serious.  I hate painting.  I love painted armies, but it's a chore I do like cleaning gutters or patching holes in my driveway. 

It's not that bad for me, but I definitely have to put myself in a mood to start painting. Events are also one reason that I will try to get my projects painted.

[fluger]

Your stuff looks good though

The stuff that looks good was painted by someone else.  Unless you're talking about my Skaven.  

 

My Orks have been at 3 color minimum since 2008.  

[indytims]

To the question though, honestly even though we (eg Storm and Harvester) require painting and have rules against proxies and such we have been fairly lax of late and have allowed several players to get by without really meeting the requirements or truly getting our approval for a questionable counts as.  We made the calls to allow them, for various reasons, right or wrong, but going forward I don't know.  We much prefer to require painting but with people continuing to skirt the rules it may not make a lot of sense.  I am frankly tired of being forced to play a game of chicken every event and wish people would just have some integrity -- but then again if we don't enforce the rules then who lacks the integrity?

 

Sucks, wish people would just paint their stuff.

 

It's one reason I haven't ran a tournament in a long, long time - I can be a hard ass. If someone shows up - especially someone I 100% know KNEW about the painting requirement, and they showed up with unpainted stuff anyway - I'd turn them away. I don't care if they drove hours. They knew ahead of time, and they -chose- to disregard my tournament rules? Ain't happenin'. I don't think denying them entry to the game is anymore disrespectful than them showing up disregarding the rules. Some will argue 'it's just an aesthetic', and that's cool - but if it's part of the event rules, then it should be followed like any other rule, aesthetic or not.

 

In casual play - I don't care. I only play with painted stuff myself (for the most part), and I am fine if my opponent goes silver-surfer/gray-legion or whatever. But if an advertised event requires it - people should follow the rules or wait to participate at a time they can meet the requirements.I don't think that's asking too much.

[Kremmet]

Your stuff looks good though

 

That's not really relevant here.  I'm rather confident in my painting abilities, but it doesn't mean that I have all the time for every single project I want to do.  Now I also like to show up to events with fully painted lists because I use tourneys as an impetus to paint off of contract.  This doesn't mean that I don't understand people like Fluger who just don't want to paint or others who are interested in running some very specific combo that they haven't invested the hours to fully paint just yet.  This is especially true for dinky 20ish people local events.

 

It's not like sane people are complaining about being unable to get awards for low quality/no painting.  People are just looking to better utilize their time which, considering the standard Best Overall/Best General/Best Painted setup for events, is facilitated well regardless of three color minimum.  

[Lord Hanaur]

Which one was that?

Adepta Sororitas.  That tournament i won the day after i played you.  I was playing with unfinished models there.  So really recent.  I was kind of glad they had that rule at that one because I got to test them first against an uber scary group of armies (Centurions, then War Convocation, then Castigator+D-Thirster, ton o  Khorns Dogs+Juggy Lord+ Soul Grinder + heldrake and a partridge in a pair tree) to see how they would do, before committing to the tedious painting itself.  Given the results, paint will be forthcoming.  =)

 

I think that was a good example of where SOME tournaments that dont require it are useful.  I dont like running it that way as a rule but Ill definitely play in 'em.  I am not going to stamp my feet on principle about it if there's a good time to be had, but if the rule says its gotta be painted, i expect them to be.  I think that's only fair to the people who put i nthe time and dedication.

[InfestedKerrigan]

Painting should be scored in a series of "Yes/No" questions that makes it easy to answer and easy to track.  Paint scores are not used in determining round match ups.  They are used to determine Best Painted and Best Overall.  Points in each category are either awarded or not based on total Yes vs No on that line item across the event.  4 No / 1 Yes means no points.  3 / 2 means Judge / Committee needs to take a look and make ruling.