Two SM Rules Questions

[Doug_L]

Looking for some clarification by this board of hallowed experts.

 

1. Stormtalon can unload a unit when it travels more than 6" by following its special rules (unit counts as deepstriking). Does that mean I can zoom on the board 36" and unload the cargo? That seems pretty powerful to me so I thought I'd check. Additionally, it can also take a locator beacon in its options - I assume that this beacon would work when unloading a unit?

 

2. The ITC ruling on psykers is that they cannot manifest more powers than they have levels (level 2 manifests 2 powers max). How does this work for the conclave channeling? It seems like a waste of points... There's no specific exception in channeling so that means a typical conclave of 3x level 2s can only manifest 2 powers a turn as ITC also specifically rules that no other psykers in the conclave can manifest that turn. Those same level 2s would probably be better off not channeling - especially if you rolled a high number of warp charge.

 

In general, I'm not impressed with the ITC FAQ. They should have stuck to clarifying the vague things rather than making high-handed attempts at rules changes. If you're going to do that, you might as well address the serious balance issues in the game as well otherwise it comes across as sporadic. Unfortunately, every one and their donkey in North America has adopted it for tournaments. 

[Mr.MoreTanks]

So before this turns into another ITC opinion post, I'll answer your questions.

 

1. Yes you are allowed to deep strike out the back but are still bound to the rules of deep strike. The unit won't be able to assault. The locator beacon will not help because it explicitly states in its rules that it must be on the board at the start of the turn to offer benefits. If your flyer is coming in from reserves, it's not eligible to use is beacon.

 

2. It is definitely not a waste of points. Getting powers off on a 2+ vs a 4+ is an insane difference. Being able to do that and knowing 6 or more powers is extremely useful. It makes powers far more difficult to block as well. The conclave is arguably one of the best SM fornations out there, whether or not you're in the ITC format.

[Doug_L]

For the conclave I'd argue the other way. With three guys you have 6-12 dice a phase. If you're limited to 2 powers then you're throwing a big handful of dice at each power with a very high chance of perils. In other words, the 2+/3+ doesn't matter that often because a chunk of your powers are going off on double 6s anyways... You can have the same result without the conclave and it's a super high risk way to play. Given that space marines have no means of mitigating perils, the whole point of conclave is to be able to throw 1 or 2 dice at each power.

 

Having the broad selection of powers is nice but 12" range is short. Again, you can get nearly the same result just using each librarian separately. In other words, ITC downright neutered a space marine formation but lets the necron decurion run unchecked?

 

Good to know on the stormraven though. I'd forgotten about the starting on the board for beacons. I was thinking of using with GK purifiers but if that's the case, teleport homers don't work and it would need to be combined with a pod with location beacon. The thinking was drop in purifiers real close with cleansing flame and incinerators but it's too risky to drop that close without a beacon...

[pretre]

Keep in mind that you can push Libbies outside of range so they can cast individually. You can also choose not to use dice if you don't want to use them.

[Mr.MoreTanks]

Moving aside the obvious hyperbole in your arguments, dumping more dice into a power is always a risk.

 

You increase your odds of a Perils, and Marines do not like that. And you'd be amazed the odds of failing a Lvl 2 power when you throw 5 dice at it looking for 4+. Happens fairly often.

[Doug_L]

How is that hyperbole? Most players throw 3 dice per WC when they need to get it off. Honestly, you always need to get powers off as if you can only successfully manifest one, then it's pretty easy for the other guy to deny and shut down your phase entirely.

 

So for a typical 2WC power, I'll throw 6 dice with odds of perils at just over 25%. That's pretty scary, especially as you do that phase or phase, game or game. It's worth the risk for big powers but not worth it for most of the little witchfire ones. I'll agree with you that the conclave is objectively better than not using the conclave - especially as it's the easiest means of fitting in multiple librarians.

 

However, I think it's pretty hard to disagree that the conclave is by far strongest when it can manifest many powers a turn, using only 1 or 2 dice per each. With an average to good WC roll and 3 librarians, I have a pretty good chance of getting off 2 powers a turn - conclave or no - and my chances of perils are high. 

 

Now that I think about it, I suspect the best way to use it would be keeping only 2 librarians close to each other and keep the third off doing his own thing.

[WestRider]

This is part of why a lot of Players take more than 3 in the Conclave. You can still get your one dude Harnessing on 2+, and keep one or two more outside the 12" bubble so they can use up any remaining WC on their Powers. Also gives you better odds if you're fishing for a specific Power.

[pretre]

That's what I do.

[Mr.MoreTanks]

The hyperbole was in regards to your ITC comments.

[galahad911]

How is that hyperbole? Most players throw 3 dice per WC when they need to get it off. Honestly, you always need to get powers off as if you can only successfully manifest one, then it's pretty easy for the other guy to deny and shut down your phase entirely.

 

So for a typical 2WC power, I'll throw 6 dice with odds of perils at just over 25%. That's pretty scary, especially as you do that phase or phase, game or game. It's worth the risk for big powers but not worth it for most of the little witchfire ones. I'll agree with you that the conclave is objectively better than not using the conclave - especially as it's the easiest means of fitting in multiple librarians.

 

However, I think it's pretty hard to disagree that the conclave is by far strongest when it can manifest many powers a turn, using only 1 or 2 dice per each. With an average to good WC roll and 3 librarians, I have a pretty good chance of getting off 2 powers a turn - conclave or no - and my chances of perils are high. 

 

Now that I think about it, I suspect the best way to use it would be keeping only 2 librarians close to each other and keep the third off doing his own thing.

 

But if you're harnessing on a 2+ you likely only need 1-2 dice more than WC to get it done. If you're harnessing on a 2+ you can throw 4 dice at a summoning, have a pretty damn good shot and getting it off, and an okay chance at maybe not losing a wound to perils. 

[winterman]

In general, I'm not impressed with the ITC FAQ. They should have stuck to clarifying the vague things rather than making high-handed attempts at rules changes. If you're going to do that, you might as well address the serious balance issues in the game as well otherwise it comes across as sporadic. Unfortunately, every one and their donkey in North America has adopted it for tournaments. 

 

The ITC ruling regarding ML and number of powers cast a turn is clarifying a vague thing.  The psychic power rules have a poorly written sentence that causes lots of arguments, so they went with an interpretation that made sense to them.  Its what TOs have to do since GW fails to properly FaQ the game.

 

They do have some rules changes though, some voted on some done based on their opinion of the rules at that time 7ed was released.  Its not everyones cup of tea but the consistency between events is nice and the fact that it can and does evolve is good.

 

 

[Doug_L]

Maybe I should've made this three questions I was looking for answers to...

 

Does power of the machine spirit allow you to shoot at fliers?

 

Flyers say:

 

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots..."

 

Snap shots says:

 

"...its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots..."

 

PotMS says:

 

"..the vehicle can fire on more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at different target unit to any other weapons, subject the normal rules of shooting."

 

Is that a little vague or what? What comes first - snap shots forcing the shooter to BS 1 which the PotMS then overrides allowing for full ballistic skill (similar to a cruising vehicle) or the other way around? What's the definition of "normally permitted?"

 

The ITC FAQ addresses it specifically for flyers but makes no mention for ground units. Am I over-reading this?

[winterman]

Maybe I should've made this three questions I was looking for answers to...

 

Does power of the machine spirit allow you to shoot at fliers?

 

Flyers say:

 

"Shots resolved at a Zooming Flyer can only be resolved as Snap Shots..."

 

Snap shots says:

 

"...its Ballistic Skill is counted as being 1 for the purpose of these shots..."

 

PotMS says:

 

"..the vehicle can fire on more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at different target unit to any other weapons, subject the normal rules of shooting."

 

Is that a little vague or what? What comes first - snap shots forcing the shooter to BS 1 which the PotMS then overrides allowing for full ballistic skill (similar to a cruising vehicle) or the other way around? What's the definition of "normally permitted?"

 

The ITC FAQ addresses it specifically for flyers but makes no mention for ground units. Am I over-reading this?

"The Ballistic Skill of a model firing a Snap Shot can only be modified by special rules that specifically state that they affect Snap Shots,"

 

POTMS does not specifically address Snap Shots, so you are stuck trying to figure out what it does without conflicting with that rule above.  It is a bit murky but the strongest argument and the one I think most commonly agreed upon is that this only affects rules within the Vehicle section that limit weapons firing at full BS (so movement or damage results) and not other rules that force snap shots.  Certainly arguable and unclear though.

[Doug_L]

Oh dear, that's embarrassing I stopped at the first page and didn't read the second that had your comment in it...

 

With that wording in mind, PotMS doesn't let vehicles over-ride the snapshots for cruising or shaken then as it pretty clear doesn't mention snap shots. Is that just a hold-over from previous editions? It essentially just allows split fire...

[winterman]

Oh dear, that's embarrassing I stopped at the first page and didn't read the second that had your comment in it...

 

With that wording in mind, PotMS doesn't let vehicles over-ride the snapshots for cruising or shaken then as it pretty clear doesn't mention snap shots. Is that just a hold-over from previous editions? It essentially just allows split fire...

Yeah I think the wording just leaves a lot to be desired and is probably cut and paste-ish  from the days before snap shots.  RaW probably yeah just split fire, but we do know what it did in previous editions and we know they took the time to write a sentence that should have some sort of intent (and the rule itself is not old, its the current 7ed rule) so TOs and most reasonable people will find an interpretation that gives that sentence meaning.