sergentzimm Posted August 12, 2016 Report Share Posted August 12, 2016 I am starting to lose my faith in GW as a rules maker. Power creep to sell models, as is most of the industry. So with that said, anyone know of any projects in this area? 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 When has power creep not been used to sell product in gaming? Magic the Gathering does it.....let's change that to WotC does it. FFG does it. Steve Jackson Games does it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergentzimm Posted August 13, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 When has power creep not been used to sell product in gaming? Magic the Gathering does it.....let's change that to WotC does it. FFG does it. Steve Jackson Games does it. Not new, just tired of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 There have been a ton over the years. I was actually part of a group from 3++ Is the New Black that was working on one when the rumours of 6th sounded absolutely horrifying. None have ever gained any real traction. The only reason 9th Age took off is because core AoS pretty much completely killed the competitive scene for GW Fantasy. Unless 40K 8th Ed gets handled that badly, which I doubt, there isn't going to be the same kind of void in the scene. I actually wouldn't be surprised if 9th Age starts gradually fading as the General's Handbook and future releases bring more structure to AoS. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted August 13, 2016 Report Share Posted August 13, 2016 I am starting to lose my faith in GW as a rules maker. Power creep to sell models, as is most of the industry.Plenty of new models come out that have garbage rules. For every Centurions and wraithknight there is a toxicrene and mokanaut. Hate GW for bad rules writing not power creep ... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergentzimm Posted August 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Plenty of new models come out that have garbage rules. For every Centurions and wraithknight there is a toxicrene and mokanaut. Hate GW for bad rules writing not power creep ... Lol same thing to me. Hoping something can take root. Probably premature, but here's hoping GW figures it out or someone else does Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andozane Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 GW (and all gaming companies) will always have imperfect rules. Game companies like GW need to survive by profits, growth, sales, management, etc. There has been various levels of "power creep" since the dawn of 40K. That will not change. As for a "living rulebook" of 40K made my players and fans...that will only get serious traction if there is an "AOS" event that flips the table on 40K. As likely as it is that GW has something big planned for 40K next year, I'm pretty sure the community and GW realize that they cannot effectively destroy 40K like they did Fantasy. That is my opinion. I do hope for a simplification of 40K... IMO it is far too convoluted at this point. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I do hope for a simplification of 40K... IMO it is far too convoluted at this point. How would you simplify it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Also, Ordohammer 41k, anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andozane Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 How would you simplify it? I would take time and go back to my original "Get off my lawn" 40K I posted about MONTHS ago... IMO all the formations and special rules for each formation have become far too much to keep up with, and I know I'm not alone in this opinion. Lords of War are kept for "Special" games, like APOC or > 2K pts The reason why that DOES not really work well is so many "fluff" things for armies are now built into the formation rules, instead of standard codex rules. Which is sad, because that means if GW DOES do this simplification of 40K, guess what, new codex's will be required :( 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 The reason why that DOES not really work well is so many "fluff" things for armies are now built into the formation rules, instead of standard codex rules. Which is sad, because that means if GW DOES do this simplification of 40K, guess what, new codex's will be required :( The game really needs a hard reset anyhow. It is unfortunate, because that's a lot of new codexes, but to really fix all the issues, that's what's needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I disagree that is plays better without formations. It is certainly less complicated in terms of list design sans formations, but I love having formations that truly reward players for bringing armies indicative of their army. The problem is that there are a few problem formations (just like problem units) that make formations just another area of imbalance. And when a broken unit/item is comboed with a broken formation (Battle Company spamming grav, Aspect Host with 3 units of warp spiders, etc) it makes everything even worse. The game really needs a hard reset anyhow. It is unfortunate, because that's a lot of new codexes, but to really fix all the issues, that's what's needed. THIS. My biggest wish for 40k is for GW to STOP selling rules and just focus on making ludicrously awesome models. I wish they'd take a page out of many other game companies' playbooks and post the basic rules online for free. Make your own GOOD army builder app like PP did for Warmahordes and don't charge a king's ransom for it. Update rules online and instantaneously. Hell, make it subscription based or something, I don't care. Just make the basic stuff ONLINE. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PourSpelur Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I'm torn on the formation debate. On one hand: They allow so much cheese. I honestly can't figure out how to build an army anymore. I can't keep up with them. On the other hand: The they make some really interesting and fun lists possible. I want both... Give us a General's Handbook that has the main rules and formations that are separate pieces that can be slottted in. No interaction between formations, no mixing in to get every special rule, no decurion mega formations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andozane Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I want both... Give us a General's Handbook that has the main rules and formations that are separate pieces that can be slottted in. No interaction between formations, no mixing in to get every special rule, no decurion mega formations. After having purchased and looked over the General's Handbook for AOS, I fully agree. That one item for 40K would be awesome...plus obviously a culling of many of the formations :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Wait, aren't you just talking about "Apocalypse"? Or was it "Cities of Death"? I can't remember which additional modes of play that you have to ask permission to use so whats the point in buying the book or getting excited about the things it adds to the game it was that predates Gen. Handbook that just greatly increased 40k for the community. Oh! Death from the Skies! It was that one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 I am not a competitive player. I do not play in tournaments, typically, either. LoW and formations got me playing 40k again. Losing them, I'd stop playing. In part, because I'm building a Knight house. If I can't use my paid for models in standard play, I'm not going to fork out anything else, time money or other, into it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 16, 2016 Report Share Posted August 16, 2016 Formations are not, inherently, the problem. That's like saying that Jetpack Infantry are the problem because Warp Spiders are too good. The vast majority of the Formations out there are perfectly fine or underpowered, but the small percentage that are upping the power level are turning people off on the whole concept. Like everything else in 40K, it's that the power levels vary so wildly, not the general concept. Formations are an exacerbating factor, because the overpowered ones do tend to line up with Armies that already had very high powered elements, but it would be far better to just remove a dozen or so Formations than to throw them out entirely. I would love to see 40K trimmed down to something much like AoS+General's Handbook, with all the basic Rules available for download, and then various add-ons and the Models generating the revenue stream for GW. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sergentzimm Posted August 17, 2016 Author Report Share Posted August 17, 2016 I disagree that is plays better without formations. It is certainly less complicated in terms of list design sans formations, but I love having formations that truly reward players for bringing armies indicative of their army. The problem is that there are a few problem formations (just like problem units) that make formations just another area of imbalance. And when a broken unit/item is comboed with a broken formation (Battle Company spamming grav, Aspect Host with 3 units of warp spiders, etc) it makes everything even worse. THIS. My biggest wish for 40k is for GW to STOP selling rules and just focus on making ludicrously awesome models. I wish they'd take a page out of many other game companies' playbooks and post the basic rules online for free. Make your own GOOD army builder app like PP did for Warmahordes and don't charge a king's ransom for it. Update rules online and instantaneously. Hell, make it subscription based or something, I don't care. Just make the basic stuff ONLINE. Agreed. Models are hard to dupe in detail, for now. Rules are words, which are free. First hit free mentality Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I think if GW could figure out how to write new armies, units and formations into the game without creating codex creep, that would solve my issues with their current release schedule. They can release new and awesome rules all the time, but having a new ruleset that trumps all before it and will be obsolete in 3 months seems like a poor choice given the speed at which this game plays (both hobby aspects and the game itself are slow compared to video games and most other board games). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 I think if GW could figure out how to write new armies, units and formations into the game without creating codex creep, that would solve my issues with their current release schedule. They can release new and awesome rules all the time, but having a new ruleset that trumps all before it and will be obsolete in 3 months seems like a poor choice given the speed at which this game plays (both hobby aspects and the game itself are slow compared to video games and most other board games). The Daemon codex is fairly old and still competitive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 The Daemon codex is fairly old and still competitive. Because of FMC and psyker spam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InfestedKerrigan Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Also, PAX!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fluger Posted August 19, 2016 Report Share Posted August 19, 2016 Because of FMC and psyker spam? From what I understand its because of how good FMCs and Khorne Hounds are, mostly. The new formations from the recent campaign book breathed some real life into them as well from what I gather. Here's a breakdown on why the new Daemon formation is great for maximizing the warp storm table: LINK! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 They've got a lot of good stuff, especially with the CotW Formations. Plague Drones can get just ludicrously good with the Nurgle Aux Formation, Nurgle and Tzeentch both got really good Relics, the Khorne Core is fantastic MSU with Flesh Hounds. Even without those, there are a lot of solid Units in there. A bunch of good FMC options, Hounds, Drones, and Screamers in FA, Soul Grinders in HS, Daemonettes, Horrors, Plague Bearers, and Nurglings in Troops, depending on what you need. Lots of ways to combine them and get something that's at least decent. Plenty of garbage too, of course, but plenty to work with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted August 20, 2016 Report Share Posted August 20, 2016 How would you simplify it? I actually just did a post on this last night. That's just Core Rules, there would obviously also need to be Codex changes as well. Some of them do add complexity, but I'm pretty sure the overall complexity level would come down significantly. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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