Of Game Scale and Ground Scale - Redux

[fingolfen]

So the pot has been stirred again on TMP about what is the "right" scale for company level wargames on the tabletop. Here's my response and thoughts... 

 

http://miniordnancerev.blogspot.com/2016/08/of-game-scale-and-ground-scale-part-ii.html

[scottshoemaker]

Their viewpoint is very much a grognar one.  "we are right because we are".

 

To me it's the difference between a simulation and a game.  A simulation (as fostered by the military input) is meant to be a highly accurate training aid.  It can be enjoyable, but the devil is in the details.  Having played this kind of ruleset in the past once you are in your 4th hour of gaming it begins to be slog, albeit a very accurate one.  I honestly don't think I ever finished a 1/285th session.

 

A Game ruleset is meant to be an abstraction, more fast paced and loose.  Realism plays little part, it's more of a based in reality concept. 

 

Neither is wrong, just a preference based on the individual.  I'd like to ask what they'd think of someone who started out with their games, then moved to a "beginner" ruleset, because I had no desire to play literally all day.

[barca]

Will read the posts, but agree with F and also S: personal preference, and a mix of history and entertainment.

 

RE:Military simulations - simulating reality is complex and tedious. Many military simulations I have been involved in focus on one area or a small number of areas (detail and optimization) and abstract the rest. For example:

• Tankers want detailed armor- and anti-armor rules and stats, abstract the rest.
• Logisticians focus on their area in detail, abstract the rest.
• Same goes for pilots, ETC.

 

Having worked in Military operations and training for 17 years, I can tell you with confidence that a "TRUE SIMULATION OF WAR" would have too much chaos and emotional distractors to be a useful training aid. There are some complex computer simulations that include a fair degree of chaos and friction, but they also have abstractions.

 

As a result, military simulations optimize the rules and stats for "a slice of reality", that suits the TRAINING objective.

 

Same thing happens in wargames. Each ruleset author (or group of authors) focuses, optimizes and abstracts.

 

Main question is "Did you get out of the event the things you hoped to get?"

Whether those expectations are social, competitive, role-playing, reliving history, problem-solving, challenge, insight, etc.

 

BTW, I DID finish a massive 1/285th Cold War tabletop minis wargame, with 250+ models on the table (8'x12'). Took 6 people 14 hours on a holiday weekend. An experience to remember, but not repeat often!

 

Nowadays, I put 20-60 models on a 4x6 table, get to a decisive result, have a friendly game in 3-4 hours (including socializing), or a quicker competitive game in 2 to 2 1/2 hours.

 

Both are great experiences, but the second type is easier and cheaper to repeat than the first type.

[Josh]

I like 15mm for infantry and 1/285th for tanks. 6mm infantry just don't do it for me, and 15mm tanks are easy and affordable enough to crank out in volume (I have somewhere around 28 Panthers painted). Terrain is where the real issue is I think. A 6x4 table with 15mm miniatures and an attempt at realistic density of terrain for a western European or German battlefield makes for looooong game and a big financial output. The playing space of a 6x4 for 6mm miniatures is much more pleasing to my eye aesthetically and realistically. 

 

I think that the argument the GHQ guy made was odd. It would be interesting to know the motivations behind it. I think he's proud but I don't think he was putting Battlefront down too harshly either. 

[ZeroMoon17]

I like 15mm for infantry and 1/285th for tanks. 6mm infantry just don't do it for me, and 15mm tanks are easy and affordable enough to crank out in volume (I have somewhere around 28 Panthers painted). Terrain is where the real issue is I think. A 6x4 table with 15mm miniatures and an attempt at realistic density of terrain for a western European or German battlefield makes for looooong game and a big financial output. The playing space of a 6x4 for 6mm miniatures is much more pleasing to my eye aesthetically and realistically. 

 

I think that the argument the GHQ guy made was odd. It would be interesting to know the motivations behind it. I think he's proud but I don't think he was putting Battlefront down too harshly either. 

That's interesting, because it felt to me like a very harsh attack on 15mm wargames and wargamers.  I think Fingolfen's analysis breaks it down pretty well.

[ZEKE]

Having served in military intelligence I too have participated in wargaming exercises at div and corps HQ level. We spent every hour of every day of every week work out all aspects of the exercise and it took a couple battalions of men to work the logistics. Trust me there is no game in existence that can simulate combat. Therefore, I only like to play what is fun and enjoyable and as soon as a game is no longer enjoyable I'm out. And if someone is going to be an ass about 'have to finish' or 'then I win' they ruin the game for me putting a bad taste in my mouth thus killing the game for me.

 

As for the 285th scale minis, you could still use flames of war rules, just change the inch symbol to cm. 32" gun range equals 32 cm. You could make a travel fow set

[Noland]

I have been doing 1/285 without the conversion, very curious how that would play. Good advice.

[barca]

centimeter tape measures should be easier to obtain now, as compared to 30 years ago. Back then, I bought mine when I was in Germany. Still have it.

[barca]

ZEKE previously discussed this, and had more ideas in this scale. The playing area, is 48x60 cm, which is 19.25x24 inches.

Your transport case could fold flat to become your playing area.

[barca]

For me, a selling point of 15mm is the eye candy for newcomers and the public. 15mm tanks can be recognized and admired from a significant distance by casual visitors and passers-by.

This helps in recruiting new players.

 

Micro-armor is less recognizable when the observer is more than arms-length away.

 

I do have micro armor, and will use it again.

But, for the next 12 months, I am trying to focus on a small number of projects.

If I pull my micro armor out of storage now...well...you know the rest of the story...

[Josh]

That's interesting, because it felt to me like a very harsh attack on 15mm wargames and wargamers.  I think Fingolfen's analysis breaks it down pretty well.

 

I've given it a little more thought. Maybe he has been feeling the 15mm scene cutting into his business so he's lashing out. It's a weird argument to make now, though since it's been quite a long time since FoW came out, longer since BF started making minis. He can't really put the genie back in the bottle. 

[fingolfen]

I've given it a little more thought. Maybe he has been feeling the 15mm scene cutting into his business so he's lashing out. It's a weird argument to make now, though since it's been quite a long time since FoW came out, longer since BF started making minis. He can't really put the genie back in the bottle. 

 

I'm not sure it's cutting into his business, but the cynic in me sees a couple of things.  FoW and TY often aren't viewed as "real" wargames by the "serious" community - after all, they're not hardcore simulations.  They are streamlined abstractions, which isn't acceptable to a portion of the community, and on one level that's just fine - there should be room for everyone.  However, both have been wildly successful both in terms of sales and creating an active international gaming community whereas the simulation games continue with much smaller communities which can be highly localized or regional.  

 

So while GHQ was one of the first, they have never been able to enjoy the mass-market success Battlefront has - and Battlefront did it with a "dumbed down" "beginner" game...  So there may be some sour grapes coming through.  

[ZeroMoon17]

Yeah, I think that with the launch of team yankee, GHQ feels a need to retaliate as Battlefront is "stepping on their toes" as it were.  That's why the timing of this post.

[Josh]

So if the guys who do 6mm think less of 15mm games, I wonder what they guys who play those crazy huge games with just hex maps and chits for units think of all miniatures games?