bkieft

With OFCC around the corner I started refocusing on 8th edition so that I am not trying to think outside the confounds of the 'old' rule set as I head into next weekend

Tripping through the book I thought to myself that 8th isn't complex at all and that I could probably summarize all of the basic rules in 4 pages and move all the specialized skills to unit descriptions and call it a new game.

This solidified to me that AoS really is not less complex but trending toward something that always pissed me off around other versions of WFB and 40k where they would move all of the unit rules to the unit descriptions instead of having at least the repetitive/common ones collected in one place.  Taking my fleet of foot and impact hits and replicate the verbiage into my "list"/unit rules.

Looking at the 40ish pages of army rules to sift through while playing is a bit more taxing than the reverse of a larger basic rulebook with common rule implementation.  I found it irritating flipping through the scrolls to see what each of my special rules did or could affect during each phase.

Familiarity with the whole would improve over time, but as one of those guys who changes it up all of the time the synergies that people will end up playing in more static lists will grate on me as I continue to just throw down what I want to play, and the dreaded "web lists" will become the norm for AoS which at first I thought AoS might be trying to break...now I think it reinforces it.

Figured I would throw down my thought with my realization of how 'not complicated' 8th is and see what you all think.

No Jay, the guy is just an idiot a quite a few different levels.

Obviously he is not that attached to the work he did, or paid someone else to do, or found his ex-roomate's army in the closet.

He doesn't want to play 8th edition anymore either.

Sounds like he wasn't a serious gamer at all to me as I would assume most fly by night quitters are that try to express themselves this lopsided way.

When I quit, it will be because I am old and tired and don't have the patience for you youngins and your passions anymore. (I will probably hate myself for it as well for being an inflexible old fart)

As irritated as I am with AoS, it is a just game (albeit not the game I want or will play much) and I still enjoy hanging with you geeks.

They do look pretty good and well thought out.

"this document represents a completely unofficial way to modify the rules in to ones more conducive to competitive play."

It is easy enough to throw down a game with your buddies minis.  Try a few and see what you think.  I don't see a lot of long term appeal but it is fun in the learning stages.

I think the best route for balancing the game right now is to just look over what you are going to play with your opponent and agree upon what would be a fair fight within the time frame you have to play.

So basically self regulation.

I waffled a bit on including Special characters then realized that is exactly the point of AoS to take 2 Grimgores on the table at the same time.

I do what I want!

No Slaanesh?!?

Just like that, any positivity I had for AoS and any desire to try it vanish.

Poof

no Slaanesh, no desire

good one

I had 2 combats where the dice rolls weren't good for 2 rounds so it didn't move fast at all, more dice rolls, the more that will happen...when you depend on dice, you become disappointed. 

And moving that many models becomes cumbersome.  

Double your 80/side.  You will see it quickly.  And make sure you project your experience of that for a horde army (Orcs, Skaven, Empire).  My standard 3000 pt O&G that I run clocks in at 327 models.

Don't show this to Raindog, he will flip the table.

AoS fixes WHFB

This is what I thought of when I read that...

I actually agree with most of the items listed except the scaling into hundreds of models.  Try it, it gets weird and slows down considerably.  

...and acutely correct in the AoS case if you wanted a new edition of WFB.

Please, sir, give me another...

Never had a problem with the slight shifts in style over the years...this just doesn't seem to be one of those 'small shifts'.

The old world is dead, remember...now we can do anything we want like making Hordes style models!  <- See AoS boxed set

I think the shift will be larger than you expect.  

You can beat me over the head with these words when the Oruuks and Grots come out and blend seamlessly with my existing forces.  

May the odds be ever in your favor.

If I played Space Marines or Chaos Marines I would buy these Models and slap a bolter on them.

Those are pretty good ideas.

Let him be humorless about it if he wants to be.

My point pretre is that the old models continue to work in my current army and when they don't they get slowly replaced, although I have to say that they do not get replaced very often in 20 years of renewed model styles.  In 40k that is different.

In this case I have the reverse problem.  I don't think the new ones fit the bill of integrating into my existing armies.  

I have Mortal Chaos warbands, 2 of them, one Maurader heavy and one Warrior heavy.  These Chaos minis in the basic AoS set don't fit at all with my 4500pts of Mortal Chaos and I have a sneaking suspicion the Oruuks won't look like Orcs and the Grots won't look like Goblins.  Then I have to consider my Daemons, and Dwarves (I mean Duardin).

You say so what AND I can use my current models AND it doesn't matter what my aesthetic preferences are AND you are right.

GW is saying the same thing.  Which is a bit of an f-you to a large segment of their players like me. 

So yeah, bkieft...so what?  The game you liked a lot is no more, bye.  

Okay, thanks.  Bit of a weeny move there but whatever.  

Normally during a break up I like my partner to just come out and say I don't love you anymore and walk out instead of playing around and saying that everything is the same and it will be great again someday. 

And just to put a fine point on it...catdogs.  

Just sayin.

I think this person really "gets" what AoS is supposed to be.  I'm still really excited to play it with my daughter after OFCC is over!!

 

I think though that what is missed is that it's not "entitlement" that has me looking for another game to replace WFB (which AoS does not do).  It's that I really love the look and feel of WFB as I have grown to enjoy it.  I play a Bretonnia army of 100+ peasants for a reason... cuz it looks like the opening scene of Gladiator, and is freakin' inspiring to me!

 

So to claim that me continuing to look (elsewhere if needed) for what is inspiring to me, is somehow me being entitled, or missing the point of AoS, is just not accurate.  And I realize he didn't mean "everyone who is upset about WFB being canceled is a rage-quitter".  

 

But at the same time, writing a blog in support of AoS, and holding up WFB rage-quitters as the counterexample to your own opinion, is a straw man logical fallacy, and kinda irks me :)

Spot on!

I don't think they will be mimicking the style or the troop types that are in the current line.

I think they will go a completely different way judging by what is in the basic set.

It looks like, feels like, they want to replace it all.

Do I want an Oruuk on a sabre tooth cat wyrm next to m traditional boarboyz that now count as catdog riders?

Probably not the battlefield athestic I was going for when I was envisioning my army...but yea, I can still use my square bases right next to my new round ones.

I have models in my army dating back to the days when pewter was a new thing...my gut tells me an Oruuk isn't going to fit well, look and feel wise in an O&G army, just as the boxed set doesn't look like it would fit in an Empire army or a Mortal army because they look like they belong in 40k. Snip a weapon or a shield off, place a bolter in hand and waalaa fits into 40k.

So yeah, this is it, this is what GW has to offer and All the old Armies got these Warscrolls as a Farewell, not a more to come. Everything moving forward will be different from all the old stuff and will not be like the old armies.

The Old Models will be removed from sale as soon as the "New" armies are released. They will not be supported.

Again, from what the GW rep is saying these Warscrolls are not proof the the Old Armies will be supported but are a, as the rep said, a fun way to send them off because no one will want to play them seriously at tournaments.

This is what I have been reading from between the lines. All except the last statement which I think is from opposite world where no one will want to play AoS seriously at tournaments.

AoS is a better after hours tournament game...the type that I don't mind not finishing.

1) I think we should abandon the idea of trying to make AoS WFB...there is too much difference and a lot of ground to cover to make that a reality that the worldwide community would accept.

2) We an should get cracking on 8.5 and not wait, not hope GW is not doing the above to the game we want to play.

A "simple" rule set doesn't equal lazy imo,remember they are going after new players here.

 

And yes,the more you play this new game the more the actual movement into combat as well as the pile in movement sequence does get rather tactical,fun even!.

True, this is not a lazy man's game, it is fast and furious which is good, especially for newer game players. 

Not True...several games in there is no more strategy than "do I risk a charge?", yes or no, "do I pile in", yes or no.

 It does not lead to deep tactical thinking, just odds calculation

Fun yes, tactical no.

But NtK, we have AoS...

If the GW staff is to be believed no there is not much more coming.

New war scrolls and models, maybe a faq but that is it

Thanks Rcnjack. Missed that...worked pretty good for us anyway but I see that now...a bit confusing there in the way you need to deal with different scroll unit types

I am still curious in general on people's opinions on the 20mm bases. I get a boatload more attacks when piling in with 20mm bases.

Ah, I got your question finally...

Combat Phase step 2 says "Each model in the unit attacks with all of the melee weapons it is armed with (see Attacking).

From Attacking "The number of attacks a model can make is equal to the Attacks characteristic for the weapons it can use."

When I first read these I thought I just pick one weapon statline per combat phase.  I don't think this is true.

After playing a bit I realized for balance sake you need to use as many attacks as you can in every warscroll, as the above states, ie every weapon at your disposal each round because that is your # of attacks for the model.  

If you don't do this with Heroes and Monsters they are pretty weeny and will rarely kill anything.  

As for the goblins, they have 5+ to hit and wound on everything so a group of 40 with 2 attacks each will rarely take down big models, but it might happen if you get really lucky and your opponent gets really unlucky.

Not sure what you mean.  Fantasy had 20mm square, 25mm square, 40mm square, 50mm square with a few rectangles in there for good measure.

Humans and gobbos were 20mm, are you suggesting we rebase?