galahad911

Dos that mean everyone can self-ally now?

Westrider already mentioned it. Unit is still leadership 6 and must arrive via reserve, so interceptor weapons have pretty good odds to push them back off the table if they can force a morale check. They can't assault when they arrive, so you should be able to keep them off objectives for the last turn if you have a decent size force holding it anyway. Anti-Bug armies are always about killing the synapse, so this really doesn't change tactics much.

 

I sound unimpressed, not because the formation isn't dangerous, but because what is being described is not changing how players fight against tyranids. Really, it's just a tervigon variant, at least in very basic concept.

 

If concerned about the last turn. They can't move 1" from your units, can't assault when they arrive, so if you have enough models alive, even with that 12" move, they shouldn't be able to threaten the objective. Am I missing that they can assault from reserve?

-Pax

Alright, so, with 3 devourer flyrants, 3+ crones with their flamers, and 2+ harpies with their long range blast guns, what interceptor units are living long enough to intercept gargs coming back on in the latter parts of a game. Just because you start with interceptors certainly doesn't mean you'll have them forever.

How the hell is someone being able to field 8 FMCs comfortably at 1850 *not* changing how you fight them?

I didn't think they'd make it easy, but this doesn't sound terrible over powered either - tyranids aren't really short scoring units in most games anyway.

 

Can the mentioned gargoyles take adrenal glands? If not, I could run ork trucks into that formation and not expect any resistance at all....

 

-Pax

Yes they can, but with 6-9 FMCs flying about, if you had any Ork trucks left after a couple turns you're playing an idiot.

Siren daemon bomb when Bloodletters had a 3+ armor and old power weapons. ugh

What am I looking at here?  I see a dirty plastic bottle

And a sniper?

@Galahad911: The Mawloc specifies that it always hits the Ground Floor of Ruins. It's one of the exceptions it has to normal Blasts.

Hmm, so it does. Granted I've only played at GG for the most part for the last few years but it doesn't seem terribly common to me to see ruins with floors tall enough to fit the huge broadside models into the levels. If they can't be physically placed in there, you can't be there. 

Mawloc is only as good as your terrain. I play with a lot of ruins. My broadsides are on second and third level, mawloc can't do anything.

 

Mawloc can't reliably target multiwound modles that are t4 or better, because it is almost always a mishap. If I fail to wound once, against a broadside squad I mishap. Granted I don't want to be on the board.

 

On going reserves you roll again next turn so in theory you could just keep failing each turn and trying again, without your opponent able to do anything.

 

Mawloc works with the right terrain and you need to pick your targets carefully. It is a good choice but not an autopick.

385 is much closer to half what actual deathstars cost now as well.

Damn double post, sorry. Might as well use it.

 

The crown seems better and better the more I read, 40 points does seem hefty but you are adding 12" more control, 36"+ diameter is a lot of board control. My initial though was a tervigon, but a prime or tyrant does seem like a better candidate as you want it located more center to utilize the 18" radius.

 

Miasma cannon should be 5 points more and large blast instead of small. Or 5 points cheaper same. I don't see it being 15 points better than barbed.

 

I am thinking ymgarl factor on walking tyrant, charge forward first turn armor save +1 turn 2 charge, that +1 save would make a world of difference to get in range. The extra stregnth on charge turn 2 hopefully to prevent winning then next trun armor save as most things won't last 2 turns.

Unfortunately, the factor is only on the assault phase. :/

@paxmiles: What is the benefit in combat squadding the dev. squad? The extra men are simply there to keep the lascannons alive. As for counter assault, what you reccomend as a counter assault unit?

 

@Bigglesworth: The kroot have sniper rounds, I totally neglegted to write them here. :)

If you can combat squad them, you can split the lascannons into 2 units, and fire on 2 targets.

Very noteworthy is that if the Stormlord is destroyed, the models inside must take a S10 ap2 hit each. Those that survive, must be able to fit under where the stormlord was or are destroyed. So, heavy weapon teams on those 60mm bases are very vulnerable to being destroyed along with the stormlord.

 

Also noteworthy is that models firing from the troop bay can't see over the front turret. So, mortars are probably your real option, and you can't move the tank if you do that.

 

Last, stormlords are really expensive, especially with included cargo. Example, heavy weapon teams are units of 3, so 6 heavy weapon teams (18 bulky bases) is the max to put inside, maybe with characters added. So 18 with mortars is 360pts. The stormlord is base 480pts. That's 840pts. If you add the sponsons, say, because you want the lascannons, it can go up to 940pts. That's much more than the revenant for a unit that will likely die to a single turn of shooting from a revenant (cargo will likely die too, even if the D weapons can't shoot the contents of the vehicle they destroyed that turn)...

-Pax

So... turn the tank a little so you can see around the turret? Why would you bother with sponsons when you have HWTs shooting out of it?

Yes, it's a lot of points, but if you have to point at a revenant as a reason not to do it. Well, thanks for making my point about the revenant for me.

Screw that, get the aquilla stongpoint....

This topic is about a tournament. If you think a tournament is going to allow the AV15 building, well, you're wrong. Most of the big events are polling their player base. The overwhelming majority are against SA and Esc. Basing a list around either of those things in a discussion about tournaments is a nonstarter. 

IMO, the Stormlord with 20 HWTs in it is likely the best, all around Baneblade variant. The amount of fire that puts out really is strong.

I'm not sure when you play outside of the GG league, but we only do 2k one month out of 4 or 5. No tournaments are doing double FoC. I mean, ideas for garage games...

Seems to me that taking a skyshield would be a good idea, but 2 just seems overkill. Would rather have a bastion or something that you can put a synapse and/or venomthrope into for the other one myself. Like take a tyranid prime and attach it to a venom and put that unit inside the bastion to increase the area of synapse and shrouded and be fairly difficult to kill. In a single FoC game I'm leaning much more towards a bastion or FSR than a skyshield just for such a use.

I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that the second one seems more redundant that needed.

LoWs are not new, this is all apocalypse stuff. Read the post above, I've got actual solutions there.

-Pax

What solutions did I not address? You know what? You just want to think what you think. That's cool. Wear your blinders. Levels of a ruin are the only place on the entire table that you can hide and this is a solution? What game are you playing?

No, that necron army is bad and player is inexperienced against LoWs. Anhililation barges are clumped up. Opponent clearly has no idea how deadly his own exploding C'tan is. C'tan doesn't use the TLOS blocking advantages of his size - this one alone would probably solve it in his favor. No assault elements. And no ankyr the traveller (3+ roll to fire the revenants weapons at the eldar player anyone?). Oh, and no real use of the ruins terrain (remember, blast weapons declare which level they fire on and ones that don't land on the ruin fail, so being on the second or third level of a ruin confers some pretty solid defense against D blast weapons). No imotek, who's really OP in this exact type of game, both for his 4+ sieze and limiting range to 36" means the revenant has to come to you or it can't shoot as eldar don't have searchlights. No monoliths either (that LoW C'tan can use the portal).

 

Oh, and player barely even attempts to engage the non-LoW elements of the opponent's army, which ultimately, is why he loses, as the revenant is non-scoring and this is an objectives mission.

 

It might also be the revenant, but I really doubt it. The problem is that the necron player has no idea how to win this game, so is blindly marching his army forward.

-Pax

Everyone is inexperienced against LoWs. The Barges were clumped because he was trying to get out of LoS because if a d weapon has LoS to a non SH vehicle, 2+ and it explodes. Yes, he moved the c'tan wrong once, but moved it there to attack the revenant. You are not going to assault a revenant, IT MOVES 36" A TURN. There is no way Anrakyr, or w/e his name is, is going to get range to use MitM because, again, IT MOVES 36" A TURN. Yes, you can hide in levels of ruins, where the objectives generally AREN'T going to be. Night fighting doesn't matter, D wepons ignore cover saves and, again,  IT MOVES 36" A TURN. 36" move + 36" nightfight range = 72" range. YOU CANNOT HIDE FROM A 12+" TALL MODEL THAT MOVES 36" A TURN. Monoliths get 1 shotted, like every other normal vehicle. Engage the other parts? When you're down FB, LB, Warlord, and the VPs for the wounds lost on the c'tan....  Yes, he likely should've tried to drop warriors on objectives turn 5, but the game didn't end turn 5, and they all would've died turn 6 anyway.

Revenants are just a confluence of BS. 4 StrD large blasts, 36" jump movement, ignoring any incoming damage results on a 4+ which stacks with any other kind of save you might be able to get for it. It's really just the move. If you could catch it to assault it like other titans like warhounds and the like, it wouldn't be so bad. But you won't ever catch this thing unless the guy playing it is just plain dumb. The move makes it exceedingly hard to hide from it. Thinking this thing is anything less than stupid is willful ignorance. 

Found this on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ynV3WYLYm7w

 

Video tries to show the ridiculous nature of the revenant by comparing necrons to eldar at, I think, 2k each. They conclude that escalation games will result in D weapon fights, where non-D units have limited offensive value and non-flyers have no defensive value.

 

It was especially interesting because I thought the Necron army was rather poorly designed and the player inexperienced in apocalypse/escalation, while it seemed the eldar player had been using his army more than a few times in escalation. The entire video feels like they have a point to make, that they think escalation is stupid. Game plays more like a noob playing for the first time against a harsh veteran, rather than a balanced battle of equally skilled lists.

 

It's possible it's just reverant, but watching the video, it does seem like the necron player has never played escalation/apocalypse before.

-Pax

It's the Revenant. The guns + the range + 36" movement... It's just stupid. That Necron army isn't bad in my opinion, but once he lost the c'tan it was pretty much a situation where he's going to lose everything on the ground to the titan. Simply put, without using FW LoW units, there is no battle of equally skilled lists when there's a revenant involved, unless it's 2 revenants.

Someone already demonstrated how to win against Taudar/Eltau: http://www.frontlinegaming.org/2014/01/11/warhammer-40k-video-bat-rep-new-tyranids-vs-eldau/

 

Summary: Go first, take extra points, cheat and select the best psychic powers, and have your opponent deploy everything in one clump in the middle of the board with his tanks facing backwards.

Or, and I know I'm going out on a limb here, make a list with the new codex and not just throw your old list out there and expect to do well? Reece is upset, and that's his right to be so. But that Tyranid list is just less than garbage, and would've lost just as horribly with the 5th ed book.

Lash Flyrant is pretty sweet, just hope you dont come up against a bloodthrister. Same amount of points, swings before the flyrant, 6 attacks, 3.6 hit, .57 chance of insta-death vs .27 chance with the Tyrant, and that is the flyrant getting the charge. I just dont see anything in the 'nid book that daemons don't do better. Maybe shooting, but daemons can take soul grinders, ally in oblits, forge fiends, havocs, heldrakes, and prescience them. Crap Daemons can ally in a Lemon Russ squad and a Vendetta squad. Daemonettes > Termagants, Seekers > Gargoyles, Bloodthrister > flyrant, all for the same point costs, and no synapse. Heavy support is the only bit that leaves daemons, but Princes and Soul Grinders are pretty dang good. This is pretty disappointing. 

Daemon FMCs are around 300 points. Of course they're better than FMCs are are close to half the cost. Since 4-5 FMCs for Daemons are 1100-1500 points there isn't anything left after you deal with those.

The 5 Tyranid FMCs are coming in at about 900 points, and then there's 3-5 other T6 4-6W MCs and another 60-100 infantry models to deal with. These really are 2 different builds. Apples/Oranges

*shrug* I'm not saying it makes any particular sense, but all of the arguments against it applying are strictly interpretational- they rely on shoulds rather than anything actually written anywhere.

Cool! We've got book powers back guys!

I'm not sure where people are getting this from. Yes, the Tyranid FAQ is outdated, but that doesn't automatically invalidate all its text- the part about not being able to use Emplacements is in no way a reference to the old codex (as opposed to the parts that say things like "On page 33, replace blah blah with...") so it still applies unless a TO or your group decides otherwise.

 

 

Then in that same FAQ, with no page references, Tyranids psychers can swap to book powers. I'll take it if we're going to use a clearly out of date FAQ.

When you get the 2-3 you're not deep striking to where they put it, at least imo.

"Your opponent may deploy the unit anywhere on the table (excluding impassable and lethal terrain, but including difficult terrain, which of course counts as dangerous for deep striking units), in a valid Deep Strike formation, but without rolling for scatter."

Ummm, I''m not saying I'm "positive" about it. It's the same book with points reductions and a few new models. That is what I said was what all I *really* needed from the 5th ed book, but I am disappointed. What I am saying is that it's going to be viable in the hands of the right players with the right expectations. This is definitely no Tau or Eldar that would be much easier to new or inexperienced players. You *will* have to out-play the other guy if he's running those armies. But I don't think you'll be so outclassed that you simply have no chance. And really, that's all I ask for, myself.

5 FMCs not reliably coming in on turn 2 could also ruin your day.  Starting lictors on the table would help with that problem... Maybe some interesting shenanigans to work with...

Ummm, don't reserve them. O.o

Seems to me this book is going to rely completely on pressure and board control. You're never going to have the damage output to fight straight up with Tau or Eldar. Fiddling with lists, I'm easily getting 5 FMCs *and* 4 oval base size normal MCs with around 80-100 gaunts. Throwing 3 crones and 2 flyrants in someone's face should, in general, give you the turn or 2 you need to get control of the table with mawlocs/exocrines/haruspex to clean up whatever they try to push out on objectives with. No, you're never going to table a competent player with a good list, but I think you can win an objective game against them with good positioning/movement.