AbusePuppy

That is not exactly what I recall. I said that your list didn't capitalize on the SH as much as it could. I do think that with full FW access, the list could be stronger. I do think the list is over-reliant on the warhound. I do think the list is weak, in the respect that it's a weak collection of strong units, as opposed to a strong collection of strong units.

And yet you seem to be having a problem coming up with anything to stop it, which is why I don't really give any kind of credence to your claims. So far, you have told me that "If you played with more sixteen-inch wide blocking terrain your army wouldn't be so good" (okay sure but normal tables don't have that), that your FMC list could possibly maybe beat it (except that I have tons of Skyfire and your army has zero scoring), and then basically been at a loss to come up with anything else. Show me this strong collection of strong units- so far all you've really done is complain about how Forge World is broken.

 

In the counter lists, you said not to build a list with a warhound. My point above is about using a warhound in conjunction with the rest of the list. To not use it counters the evaluation above. You also listed a few more restrictions like a pod list, a flyer list, a daemon FMC list, the apoc c'tan, kustom stompa, revenant and vect/imotek. I'm trying to work within these confines at 1750pts. I can do it, but it won't be timely.

Sure, because your contention was that my list was bad and that the Warhound wasn't nearly as good as I made it out to be. My central point is that the Warhound, along with other units depending on what particular set of rules you use, turns Escalation into a non-game.

Those other things aren't "restrictions," those are the lists you're likely to deal with. I could easily write a list that beats my army and my army alone- that's a trivial exercise for any army you can name. But if you think my army is weak, you should be able to beat my army and other armies as well.

 

And again, probably the biggest issue isn't that I can't build a list that would probably win, it's that I can't build a list that I know would win because I mostly play 40k with my IG/SM/INQ - the very army I'm not supposed to use. I don't have a ton of current 6th ed. experience with the other armies.

I never said you can't use SM/INQ/IG- you put that restriction on yourself. There are other superheavies besides the Warhound for those factions, you know. Do you think you have a better Warhound list than I do? You certainly have made no allusions to it.

Also, as per the escalation rules, on a 4+ rolled at the start of the game, we use one of the escalation missions and not a regular mission - I have no experience with the escalation missions, but this is part of the escalation rules. Something worthy of note, as I don't think we've mentioned it.

 

Sorry, no dice. The Altar of War missions aren't used by any tournament anywhere, for one, and for two even armies like Farsight Enclaves have AoW missions available to them. Many of them use special deployments, Force Org Charts, and other stuff that isn't compatible with playing a pickup game between two people, so we can utterly discount them.

 

Oh, and at GG league, the double FOC is kosher at 2k or higher, has been for some time. We don't always do 2k, but it's been there when it was. I don't do tournaments usually, so this my main 40k outlet. Have not had the reported issues with cheese due to double FOCs. Often double FOC prevents the player from affording a full allied detachment due to point constraints. If anything, I've heard more complaints about the use allies than the use of the double FOC.

People will complain about anything. I still hold that double-FoC is basically just a moneysink that makes the game less interesting. None of the tournaments I have seen or been to use it, so I would have to say the league is rather unique in that respect.

C:Daemons

 

HQ: Hearld of Tzeentch (Portalglyph)

Troops: Horrors (10)

Troops: Horrors (10)

 

LoW: Daemon Lord – Aetaos’rau’keres, Greater Daemon of Tzeentch

 

Allied DE (desperate)

HQ Vect

Troops Wyches (5, haywire)

-Raider (Lance)

Heavy Reaper

Total: 1749pts

 

List is very iffy, plus it uses the daemon storm table. I have two different units that can create troops, hence my light scoring unit inclusion. Much of the army hinges around going first and around that daemon lord, so I had to include vect as I can't ally with imotek. List is pretty reliant on haywire weapons to solve my vehicle problems.

I would have to call this pretty dicey- your odds of going first are only slightly better than mine overall (since Coteaz shuts down a lot of Vect's bonus, and if you start out on top I still get two tries.) I have enough units to force Grounding tests that it should be a very rare thing for him to stay in the air even when you go first- I can reliably force 6-8 tests on your in a single turn if I don't blob up (which I wouldn't want to) and once you're on the ground I should pretty much always kill you in a single volley of Destroyer shots (I average doing twelve wounds, you only have nine, and any six should finish the job immediately.) And, of course, you have the usual problem of only two scoring units, although the Portalglyph mitigates that somewhat. It is technically possible for you to kill me with your shooting, although extremely unlikely- you need to drop five Shields and then do 9 HP, and you have 6+2d3 Haywire and one Lance to do so at best, so you need to get really lucky with the penetrations for that to happen.

Also your list has exactly the same problem against a Revenant (though they won't have quite as many ways to force Grounding), has absolutely no way of dealing with an enemy FMC army (they just avoid you and prey on your troops) or Necron Air, ditto for the C'tan list (wounding on 6s with your blast and 5s with your normal attacks, plus he has a Destroyer weapon or two and you do not), plays for the draw against Drop Melta (they kill your troops and call it a day), ditto against enemy FMCs (Puppet Master will make you blast your own army to pieces in short order), and so on. I don't think you can say that this list has any real game against most strong Escalation armies.

But the Agile rule is utterly ridiculous and shouldn't exist. "I can be anywhere I want on the board every turn" is dumb.

I need more FOC slots to create a proper MSU list to counter your army. This is because you've got apocalypse [not escalation, apocalypse] units at a point level where the FOC limitations impair my army to a very great degree. At 2k, I could do it with a double FOC, but this also breaks the rules that you've constucted you list within.

There are a bunch of other superheavies that SM and IG get... they just aren't nearly as good as the Warhound. Which was my point. If the actual models you own are the problem, I would have no problem accepting a list with proxies in it for purposes of the exercise.

 

Escalation is really not designed for use with the FW rules (in particular, the non-LoW FW rules). It's very apparent when the reading the books and trying to balance a match-up. I don't like facing a revenant, but that thing is expensive enough where your army should be impaired by the cost. The warhound, on the other hand, is very inexpensive by escalation super heavy standards.

Again, I really can't give you much sympathy here. You straight-up said my list was weak, but now you are saying you're at a loss to come up with a good counter? Escalation wasn't "designed for" anything, it is a horribly-unbalanced mess of rules that were never thought through.

However, since you are bemoaning the inclusion of Forge World so heavily and seem to think it is the one and only problem with Escalation, I am willing to offer you an alternate take on things: write a 1750 list with all codices, supplements, and dataslates available (but no FW) WITHOUT using any Lords of War or the Aquilla Stronghold, and make it one that stands against the entire field of units available (including Lords of War, and most noteably the Transcendent C'tan, Revenant, Stormsword, and Stompa.) If Escalation is properly balanced, said list should be able to offer an effective challenge to all (or at least most) of these lists as well as the relevant counter-lists that appear to them in Escalation (Daemonic FMCs, Necron Air, Drop Marines.)

Well, the escalation book is mostly just re-printed material from the apocalypse book. So, in many respects, escalation is part of the apocalypse book.

 

Anyway, main issue I've been having with list creation is the FOC. Your list works because the IG barely follow a single FOC with their platoon rules.

 

Hmmm...How about this one:

 

CSM 1750pts

 

HQ Sorcerer (lvl2, MB)

Troops Cultists (10)

Troops Cultists (10)

 

LoW

Chaos Reaver Titan (TL Turbo Laser destructor, 2x Laser Blaster, Daemon of Tzeentch)

 

Thanks to those completely balanced FW rules, it's perfectly legal to field a Reaver or chaos Reaver titan in games of escalation via the same PDF that says you can use a warhound. Unlike the mediocre warhound, this sucker is sporting 4 built-in void shields, 8 D templates, and 18 Hull points. Unlike the normal Reaver, this one counts as a daemon, so has a 5++ in addition to the above.

 

Your move.

-Pax

 

PS: If looking for a more all-comers list, destructor on the reaver change to carapace Vulcan mega blaster, Titan CCW, and Laser blaster. Vulcan has 15 S6 shots for AA, even if it must snap. Laser blaster is 3 D templates and titan CCW is a D melee weapon. Oh, and I'd swtich Daemon of Tzeentch for Daemon of Khorne, as that one adds +d3 attacks on the charge, which would matter with the D melee weapon. That would pretty much cover all my bases in one model, even if a bit sub-par in the AA end.

 

Cultist units go in reserves, with solo sorcerer near the reaver and out of enemy TLOS. I might not even bother rolling psychic powers.

I fight you to a draw with ease, at the very least. You only have two squads of troops, and I have... well, anything at all to kill them with. Every weakness you've brought up for my list, yours has tenfold, and you have absolutely zero solutions to anything that has anything resembling a plan against you. Air Force? Autolose. FMC list? Autolose. Melee combat with anything vaguely decent? You basically have no units left for the rest of the game. Drop Pods? Probably kill you before you get to do anything to them. (Vulkhan + 2x10 Sternguard with Combi-meltas fits pretty easily, and still leaves room for whatever other 1000pts of toys they want for dealing with other armies.)

If looking for a more all-comers list, destructor on the reaver change to carapace Vulcan mega blaster, Titan CCW, and Laser blaster. Vulcan has 15 S6 shots for AA, even if it must snap. Laser blaster is 3 D templates and titan CCW is a D melee weapon. Oh, and I'd swtich Daemon of Tzeentch for Daemon of Khorne, as that one adds +d3 attacks on the charge, which would matter with the D melee weapon. That would pretty much cover all my bases in one model, even if a bit sub-par in the AA end.

 

Cultist units go in reserves, with solo sorcerer near the reaver and out of enemy TLOS. I might not even bother rolling psychic powers.

Your AA there is basically meaninglessly terrible- you'll average just over two hits and do maybe one wound to a normal FMC. You seriously thing they care about that at all? The Str D melee weapon means you have a fighting chance against some things, but your low WS and I values mean that you're unlikely to actually land enough hits to matter. Going down to only three Str D shots means that I can probably beat you in a shooting war- you're tougher, obviously, but I have five Void Shields to your four (and that also means it is functionally impossible for you to kill me on turn 1), and with the Sabres I can drop ~2 Void Shields off of you before I begin firing with my Titan. I'm likely to go first (by virtue of rolling high or by Coteaz) and my blasts shouldn't ever miss you, barring unbelievably-bad luck, as I have Prescience while you do not. In any situation where I go first, I should win handily- I drop two Shields from you, fire and hit with four Turbo-Lasers, and get two rolls on the Destroyer table; you get to go, and firing everything at me you can still really only hope to get super-lucky with your Bolter and get a crapload of sixes to drop my Shield before the blasts come down- failing something unusual there, you won't kill me and will get back ~1 Void Shield. On my turn 1-2 Vendettas come in and with it or them plus my Sabres, I can easily drop any Shields you might have gotten back and then hit you with a full volley from my Destroyers again, which should finish you off pretty easily. Even if I get critically unlucky there, remember I still have two Vendettas, two Sabres, and a team of Meltavets that can all try and ping off your last couple of HP and wiping out your minimal troops should be little trouble at all. If we both blast each other's troops away, I still am easily in the lead, as I will have 6 bonus VP from Through Attrition, Victory, whereas you will only have three- that means you need to score every single other secondary objective just to tie with me.

I am fully aware of what the Reaver titan is capable of. In Apocalypse games it's pretty stupid, but in 1750 you don't have enough points left to properly support it- it's the same problem that the Revenant runs into against the Warhound. The Revenant is, cost aside, easily the better unit, but that 200pt price difference changes a lot.

I could be thinking of the older flyrant models. How tall is the current hive tyrant kit? How wide, when excluding wings? The base itself should be pretty easy to hide so long as I don't have some amazing diorama on it.

Again, though, I was using what was available to me- if it had been an Escalation tournament without Forge World, I would've brought a different-but-still-broken list.

I know you like Apocalypse formations, but there are not any rules for using them in the standard game at all and I have never seen any tournament that allows them or uses any other parts of the Apocalypse rulebook. I think it's rather a stretch to include them.

Is a 12" move slow now? I guess I'm out of the loop.

I missed it then, are the sabre platforms interceptor? I was thinking they just had skyfire. And you actted like the only cheesy FW unit you had was the warhound....

Ha ha, no, Sabre platforms are stupid. Incredibly stupid. They're one of a number of reasons I don't think Forge World should be included at tournaments- IG get access to so many stupidly-broken toys.

 

I have seen the harpy/hive crone models. Maybe you didn't notice, but official GW TLOS rules don't count wings for MCs and FMCs. The base and stem don't count either. Yeah, so you have maybe a 2" sphere of a target if they face you. Very easy to conceal with mentioned ruins. Personally, I really think the wings should count, just as they do for flying vehicles.

The wings don't count, yes (it's one of the things that makes it actually possible to sometimes hide the Flyrant, since its actual body isn't very large), but the base certainly does count (only flyers/skimmers ignore their bases) and since there is no real differentiation between the "tail" and "body", it's pretty hard to claim the immunity there. Being mounted on top of the flyer stand certainly doesn't help any, either.

 

I like to think of terrain placement and selection as part of the strategy. If I am facing a warhound, or another huge unit with TLOS weapons that are devastating, I need to insist on using TLOS blocking terrain. Even 1 or 2 big pieces in the center of the table should be enough.

So why doesn't the Warhound player get any say in this, then? If terrain selection is part of the strategy of the game, why do only you get to make choices in that regard? I would hardly consider it "fair" to do so, but if we're playing under this speculative set of rules, I'd find a nice, big, flat piece of area terrain and plunk it down dead-center in the middle of the board so you can't block me off there.

 

I could eaisly hide several MCs behind it. I would not be placing it so your 12" move would work in gaining TLOS to my army with your warhound. Especially, remembering that SH-Walkers still only move d6" through terrain. I would not be putting it so close that something other than a very wild scatter could clip my flyers.

I don't think that you can place something as big as a Hive Tyrant both close enough so that I can't see it and far enough that I can't clip it with the template. The tower is only 5" across- a Hive Tyrant's base is essentially 2" across, and the large blast marker is 2.5" radius. Pretty simple geometry ensures that you aren't going to have any easy placement options there.

(And I think we both know that superheavy walkers moving a maximum of 6" through terrain is silly and utterly unintended.)

 

I've been having issues motivating myself to make lists as of late. Not really an excuse, that's the delay. I'm also trying to beat it without also bringing a warhound, as that would defeat the purpose, or so it seems to me. I do own a warhound, so fielding it is the obvious option. My warhound is one of the Armourcast ones, so it is shorter than the FW one - I wonder if this is the issue, as perhaps you are thinking of a different model than I.

I'm not using the actual Warhound, either- I've been using my Dreamforge Leviathan, which is closer to the Armorcast one than the Forge World one in size. (It's about an inch shorter than the FW one overall.) And yes, using a Warhound to beat my Warhound would rather defeat the point of "that unit isn't overpowered." :P

Honestly, take out the FW units (even just the non-LoW ones) and then try escalation again. See if it remains as broken as you think it is. It might still be, but what you are playing is closer to apocalypse than to escalation.

 

Anyway, so counter lists. Am I restricted to any set number of FW units (or FW army lists), or is the idea to beat your cheesy list with a normal codex list?

As I said before, that doesn't actually change all that much for me. It leaves my list a lot more vulnerable to FMC spam, but that's basically it- I would be trading the Sabres over to Hydras, which weakens my scoring presence a bit, but that was never actually relevant in any of the games I've played of Escalation- they inevitably ended with tablings or near-tablings.

Most of the people who argue that Escalation is "part of the game" are likewise in favor of Forge World, so I don't see any dichotomy between using the two of them. You could just as easily argue for the inclusion of Escalation but not Stronghold Assault, which feels just as weird to me.

As far as writing a counter-list, bring anything FW that you please- most tournies don't allow FW army lists, but I find that a bit of a bizarre restriction, since none of them are actually any more powerful than the "core" lists, really. So bring whatever you think you can win with- that's sorta the point of a tournament list.

What's really hilarious is just looking at the differences- there is a HUGE block of "everyone is battle brothers with everyone" that occupies the entire upper-left corner of the grid, and the moment you hit a non-Imperial everything goes blue and red.

If I target a flying model protected by a void shield, is the void shield considered a flying target? Do I snap/skyfire to shoot at the void shield?

 

Can other powers/effects that limit shooting options affect the void shields?

 

In example, a power that requires a leadership test to shoot at the model (IG psykers). Do we test leadership, then resolve against the void shield, then against the model? Or do we resolve against the void shield, then test leadership, then resolve against the model?

Remember that the Void Shield doesn't kick in until after hits have been resolved- so anything that works prior to that is going to function exactly like it otherwise would. If you're shooting at a flyer, you will do so exactly as if you were shooting at that flyer if it wasn't protected by the shield, so models without Skyfire will make snap shots, you can't get hits with blast or template weapons, etc. Similarly, abilities that limit your capacity to target the model in question (Nightshroud, Eldar Veil of Tears, Night Fighting rule, etc) will all kick in well before the Void Shield comes into play and so will function normally.

Ah, yet another one. Okay, so I fire a weapon at a target that is both equipped with it's own void shields and protected by additional void shields. Which resolve first? It does matter a good deal if I intend to fire at other targets, ones without their own void shields, later that phase.

-Pax

There's a slight inclarity here, but I think it's pretty easily resolved by precedent. The Void Shield Generator notes that if you have multiple VSGs protecting a single unit, you should randomize which one is "first" when the unit is hit. It thus makes sense that if a unit has built-in Void Shields in addition to being under the effects of a Generator, you would similarly randomize which protection takes effect first.

You don't have any indirect weapons, so why have I deployed with TLOS for the entire army? Harridan is likely in reserve, given it's huge size,

 

I really get the feeling, reading your posts, that you aren't playing with much tall terrain. If you buy GW ruins, those should give you an idea on how tall terrain should be for 40k....

Holding your units in reserve just means they come in piecemeal and gives me more chances to use Interceptor. That's nothing but an advantage for me. FMC armies need to play aggressively to win, and reserving stuff is the opposite of that.

You and I seem to be thinking of completely different models. Do you seriously think you can hide a Crone or Harpy behind any of those? Have you ever actually seen how big the Crone kit is? You could hide the Genestealers, sure, at least until I sent a Vendetta-embarked squad to go deal with them, but your FMCs? Not gonna be ducking out of sight even behind the biggest of those. Look at the pictures you posted- there are windows, doors, etc, ALL OVER them. My 9" tall titan will easily be able to see some part of your models through the door.

You keep harping on blocking terrain like it's the solution to all the problems in the world, but either you are playing with truly absurd amounts of it (covering half or more of the table) or you're just overestimating the effect it has. All those huge ruins give shooting units great places to deploy into to look down on the battlefield, which negates a lot of the disadvantages of having them around.

 

 

Yeah, terrain pictured has lots of open areas, but in escalation you should have at least 1 tall TLOS blocking terrain piece per table quarter....or you will find D weapons horribly unbalanced. They are not indirect weapons and that is for balance. Get a mountain or something to block TLOS.

Wait, so you think having 16"+ long and 12"+ tall pieces of BLOS terrain in every table quarter is the "normal" way to play the game? Sorry to break it to you, dude, but that's your personal version of 40K. There are lots of things you can do with terrain that will rebalance the game, but that doesn't make them even slightly official. Heck, I could "fix" Escalation by demanding everyone play using Zone Mortalis terrain- bam, no more titans or superheavy vehicles being able to move around, game fixed.

 

For fluffy reasons, You don't fight a battle where terrain will make the battle lopsided. Yeah, surprises and such, but you shouldn't be fighting a super heavy that just snuck up on you....maybe in apocalypse.

 

At GG, we've got a FoR tower as a ruined building. It's ~14" tall and blocks TLOS well.

Dude, I have played with a G.I. JOE PLAYSET many, many times. If you think you can hide the flying Hive Tyrant model behind one of those against a unit with a 12" move in most deployments, you are dreaming. Heck, I don't even need to be able to see you if you're bringing the building- I can shoot at the building and have the template clip your Tyrant and kill them both with the same shot. (Stronghold Assault rules, remember.)

 

Anyway, list was just to keep you thinking while I consider the list construction end. I'm still doing so.

If you wanna play this out on the tabletop sometime, I'll be more than happy to show you once you've put together your list. Well, assuming I can get up to Portland or you can get down to Corvallis, but...

 

Not one piece of this thread makes me feel good about this particular direction of the game.  I am certain that people can have a good time with this, but I guess I have a bunch of monies to spend before I join a tourney that uses any of these rules.  I already miss good ol' 6th edition 40K.

Well, since that's what most people actually play anyways, it shouldn't be a problem. Escalation is pretty universally reviled by casuals and competitive alike.

I don't think the rest of your list capitalises on it as much as you could. List also seems over-reliant on the warhound.

 

Anyway, here's one I posted in Knight thread, but no one seemed to read it...

 

List isn't exactly optimized, but it might provide a challenge for your army in theory hammer, while I consider a more balanced all-comer's escalation list.

Well, let's go over this on a basic level: if I go first against you, you lose. My Warhound will blast the two Tyrants, my other guns will hammer your various flyers and probably do some significant damage, and that will be that. This includes my ~1/3 chance of Seizing on you in addition to simply rolling better. If it's an objective game, you have to play for the table against me- I have 6-9 scoring units with the ability to move them across the table (via Vendettas), you have two 5man squads that Flamers or other guns will make short work of. Even if you get the top of the turn, I can force 7+ Grounding checks on you each turn pretty easily, which means my Warhound should just about always have targets. Your Crones have only a finite ability to break my Void Shields (and your Tyrants none at all), so you're reliant on your Harridan there... and your Harridan isn't going to be alive for long at all.

Against a C'tan list, you have basically nothing- the C'tan himself can vaporize your troops without even trying and they have plenty of AA guns to drag your guys from the sky so he can launch assaults on them, and he easily beats all your guys in assault. A Revenant may not have a lot of support guns to force Grounding tests, which will put it at a major disadvantage in this case- personally I would build around Jetbikes so that is less true, but most people do not, so we can call that an advantage for you. A Drop Melta list going ahead of you should all but table you straight away as it kills your more threatening FMCs and troops and then forces you to play for the draw when it already has Warlord and First blood. (Going second will depend a lot on what its support is, but seeing Hyperios, Stalkers, Stormtalons, etc, should be expected.) A Daemonic FMC list is going to come down a lot to positioning and psychic power shenanigans, but I would call it a toss-up overall.

I don't really see how, barring extreme luck on your Grounding tests, that army can expect to beat most other Escalation lists, especially since you don't even have the ability to claim all of your own objectives in many games.

Honestly, many of your issues seem like they stem from not enough TLOS blocking terrain and use of the warhound titan. You shouldn't have clear TLOS to the entire table in escalation games. There should always be some giant pieces of terrain blocking TLOS. The Warhound shouldn't be able to shoot everything turn 1. It should have to maneuver around the terrain to hunt it's opponent down.

 

What your doing sounds like playing 40k on an empty table and complaining that your units die too quick...yeah, they should die quick if you take away most of the strategy and just have both armies be gun lines in an empty desert.

You seriously think that most tables should have enough terrain that TITANS can't see over it? Because while some of the battles in that report had some things that were pretty light on terrain, there were others that had some very large (12"x12" or bigger, more that 7" high) pieces of LOS-blocking terrain on them. That didn't stop the Warhound from getting its shots in. Moreover, the C'tan and Revenant are even better able to circumvent or take advantage of such terrain than the Warhound is. Superheavies pretty easily CAN maneuver around terrain to see past things- it's one of their advantages.

I generally play on tables with 25% terrain coverage and an even mix of "standard" terrain, blocking terrain, and area terrain. That's pretty much what GW recommends and it fits with what most people I've met say feels correct for play- even a tad heavier than some. We're not talking an "empty desert" here, we're talking about tables that aren't covered in 12" high impassible walls.

 

The power working is unreliable, but the test is done after the opponent decides to shoot, so it's up to them if they need to test. This makes the power more psychological against the player and that is it's strength. In the respect of you personally, would you play the odds that the warhound couldn't shoot for a turn if it meant ignoring a certain target with the D weapons for a turn? Odds are something like 91.66% chance to pass the Ld 10 test.

Generally I wouldn't, no. But generally I wouldn't need to, because most things you would attach that guy to are not a major threat to my Warhound- and if you do put him with something that is a problem, a 92% chance of success is really not very bad odds for me.

 

So you don't bubble it? With that list, I'd expect you do bubble wrap your warhound to prevent DS enemies. I suppose if the plan is to put it in the center, then destroying it should be much easier than anticipated, as I don't need DS units to get to a warhound camping in the middle of the table.

Against most armies, there's no need to bubblewrap it. Either you have Deep Striking units in your army list or you don't, and I'll know which at the beginning of the game. And I have until turn 2 to move over next to Coteaz for protection if you do- turn 1 I'm free to maneuver for shooting, unless you're running Drop Pods.

You seem to think that destroying a titan is a pretty trivial task just because it's not sitting next to some Guard guys. I've already put the question to you, but you haven't answered yet: can you show me a list that consistently beats my list, Eldar Revenant lists, Necron C'tan lists, Daemonic FMC lists, and SM Drop Melta lists? I want to see what this mythical beast looks like.

 

I do see the issue here. A general purpose escalation list is certainly tough. Eldar could probably do it, espcially with DE allies (or DE with eldar allies). I don't know if they need the revenant, given that the lance weapons are pretty impressive against LoWs and fortifications. MSU tactics are probably best against D weapons, given that even with 4 pie plates, if you can only kill ~100pts of models per turn it does certainly limit the value a warhound can offer to the army. Haywire grenades would also be pretty impressive against the warhound and SH tanks.

Lance weapons are okay, but not great, against a lot of the superheavies. You still needs 5s to penetrate, remember, and you need 4s to drop Void Shields. That translates into rather a lot of Lances required. (DE can bring them more easily, but DE have other problems.)

Haywire are actually quite good- I doubt anyone actually has the models for it, but 3x10 Scourges with 4 Haywire Blasters each is hilariously good against superheavy targets, especially if you have a Farseer around to twin-link them.

 

I don't think the TAU needed a super heavy. They have more than ample escalation options in their current codex and shouldn't struggle against any vehicles. Worst case, they ally to obtain the AV solutions they need. As for the tiger shark, I think it might be more impressive in-game than it looks on paper. You can also swap the drones for seeker missiles (6). I do think that SH's being able to target lots of different units does make the SH flyers a bit more impressive.  

 

As for riptides, your comment about 4x D templates being able to remove 1-2 riptides per turn is funny. Yeah, 4x D templates should remove 1-2 riptides per turn. Most units should die at a rate of 1 unit per D template, while the riptides require 2x to remove them with average rolls - that's impressive. The riptides are fully able to move, shoot, move, so them being in TLOS for the D weapons is their own fault. The move-shoot-move option is very strong against escalation units that require TLOS.

No, it's actually not very impressive at all because you have to shoot both pie plates at the same target (you fire each GUN independently, not each shot from a gun), so there's no real benefit at all.

Six. Seeker. Missiles. Five. Hundred. Points. Come on, Pax, even you can't be this obtuse.

 

Harridans don't have to zoom up. I see many FMCs do this due to limited shooting range, but the harridan doesn't face this issue. As a FMC, you could go back and forth and just shoot at long range. This should dramatically limit the number of weapons that can hit the harridan. Plus, if they waste their AA on the harridan, it means they aren't shooting any other tyranid flyers.

If your Harridan is hanging back, it's not really affecting the battle any, is it? Those half-dozen hits per turn is pretty unimpressive and sooner or later it will fail a grounding check against one of the longer-ranged weapons and then it's dying to Str D.

The fact that you barely even HAVE any other Tyranid flyers in your army makes the second point kinda laughable. Most armies are not gonna struggle to deal with one Tyrant, one Crone, and two Harpies at 2000pts.

 

 

The thunderhawk can start on the table, or did you miss that in the SA book? It's a flyer with hover, so it can technically start on the table on a skyshield. Probably not a great idea, but it is an option.

 

As for the Thunderhawk size, GW has released two different thunderhawk models over the years. GW released this one a while back for normal 40k:

This sucker is pewter, but remains a legal thunderhawk for 40k models (debate-ably more legal as it's a GW one, not a FW one). I understand it to only be slightly larger than the SR....

Sure, by paying an 80pt Premium. Oh, and also you're in Hover mode and can't Zoom first turn, so they can hit you will all those Str D blasts that you would otherwise be immune to. So yeah, go ahead and try that, you're opponents will greatly appreciate getting a free superheavy kill.

And yes, there is the old pewter Thunderhawk. How many of those have you seen in person? Not a lot, I'm betting. The overwhelming majority of players who have Thunderhawks have the resin version, so it only makes sense to base any considerations based on the model off of the vastly more prevalent one.

 

Terms on 25mm bases are still legal for normal play. Players that put them on 40mm do so as a courtesy or for a more scenic look, but there are no official GW rules to demand or support this change from the model as it came.

This is true, but keep in mind that my army of 1mm tall "Genestealers hiding in the swamp" army is also legal for play. Modeling for advantage isn't actually against the rules.

I honestly think FW is inconsistent in their point costs and it results in inconsistencies in balance. The other key issue is that some units are built with very different rules in mind. In the perfect example, that Kustom Stompa you mentioned is not designed for the present version of apocalpse and is pointed for the old version. One very notable difference is that melee D weapons only used to function against other Super heaives/garguantian creatures. Another key difference was that super heavies were completely immune to psychic powers that weren't shooting attacks, so you couldn't buff or de-buff them. D weapons used to allow invulnerable saves and cause automatic ID to non-vehicle units and now function very differently.

I double-checked it, I was actually wrong- it means giving up their shooting phase. So decent in that respect, but still extremely unreliable in its actual application.

 

That wahound is strong, but the list itself is basically a turtle list. All the opponent needs is some TLOS blocking terrain and some indirect weapons (even biovores or a whirlwind) and that list would have lots of difficulty due to it's immobility. Yeah, the warhound is fast, but he moves faster than his bubble wrap, so if you advance with him, you won't be able to keep up his guards.

Well, for one "other than the warhound" is kinda a silly thing to say about that army because it's entirely centered around the Warhound for its firepower. It's actually very, very difficult to keep out of LOS from a 9" tall model with a 12" movement speed, barring some incredibly-large pieces of terrain. And even assuming that, my Void Shield will shut down most barrage weapons, forcing them to move anti-tank units into LOS to break it and fire shots at me... which allows my Warhound et al to vaporize those units and continue with my plan as usual. (The ability to deliver scoring units via the Vendettas shouldn't be ignored, either.)

 

I do think that the list you have posted would lend a player to think that the LoWs are broken and that normal 40k is screwed. This is because you have a deathstar list where the entirity of the list is focusing on being the warhound, or supporting it.

 

As for actual counter lists, do you want me to tailor one? Or just build one I think is more all-comers nasty for escalation?

 

I do think you'd greatly benefit from a recon vehicle (vehicle with scout) with a searchlight, as night fighting will greatly limit the warhound and those flyers won't arrive until turn 2+.

Night Fight basically isn't an issue for me at all- by deploying the Warhound centrally and using its 12" move, I can shoot essentially anywhere on the table, as Str D doesn't care about Stealth/Shrouded.

I don't doubt you could tailor a list to beat me- heck, I practically give away such a list in my article (Be'lakor, LoC, 3 flying DPs)- but do you think you can make a list that will reasonably beat my list, a Revenant list, a Transcendent C'tan list, a flyer list, and a Drop Pod list? I would love to see what army you think can do that with any degree of consistency. 1750pts, keep in mind.

 

I agreed with you with my first few reads, but they actually counter each other very well. GW did a good job picking ones that rock-paper-scissors each other very nicely. The present issue in the meta is that people don't have the TAU flyer (Tiger Shark), the Harridan, the thunderhawk, and no one seems to have any intention of buying them.

 

That harridan should be very very impressive against lots of escalation units, plus it allows tyranids an additional "flyer" slot in the FOC. It's all the normal threat of FMCs, plus S10 vector strikes and 12 S10 shots at 48" of range. It's also a transport for the gargoyles (which can be scoring with that dataslate). Do not underestimate this one. It would likely dominate the skies and crush things not-airborne.

The Tiger Shark is a f***ing atrocity, it's one of the worst superheavies in the game. It holds the mighty power of an Ion Cannon on a five hundred point platform- but not just that, oh no! It also has Gun Drones! really, who can compete with that kind of firepower?

The Harridan can be grounded exactly like any other FMC. This means that what is almost guaranteed to happen against any Escalation list is it will swoop forward, make 3-5 grounding tests and fail one, then the Str D templates come down and erase it. Running it alongside the dataslate is... not really possible at 2000pts, I think- the Harridan itself is 735pts, the Skyblight Swarm is 835pts. That leaves you virtually nothing for your "actual" army, since neither of those things fulfill your FoC requirements, and it leaves you extremely light on Synapse.

I would gladly play my list against anything using the Harridan or Tiger Shark, no questions asked. Heck, I think my 1750 would stand a pretty strong chance against a 2K list using either of those things- they're basically a huge weight tied around the ankle of any list using them.

Oh, and those twelve S10 shots? BS3. So six hits, three glances/pens against AV14 (and AP3, so no bonus on the damage table.) That's barely even enough to drop my Void Shields, much less bring my units crashing down.

 

The thunder hawk is easily the best LoW on paper. As a flyer it's immune to all the other D weapons in escalation. It can tow units and has an assault ramp, so you get the repair from the inside shenanigans, plus you can bring assault units. Plus it has D and ordnance weapons, which as a super heavy, can all be fired at full BS at lots of different targets. Plus you could bring scoring inside. And so forth. Most non-escalation AA options would struggle against a thunderhawk with two techmarines (with servitors) in tow. Being able to regenerate 2x HP per turn while also being airborne is nasty.

 

The tiger shark isn't comparable to the more expensive super heavies, but would still contribute pretty impressively for TAU. Very notable is that the tau flyer has access to the tau vehicle armoury, which means that it can have a 4++ against interceptor weapons, 4+ evade, and may make prescision shots. The weapons appear underwhelming, but they aren't bad. It has base BS4 with strafing run for BS5 (and pinning) against ground. This is not a deathstar unit, but in escalation, the TAU don't need one. The Riptide is already a pretty impressive escalation unit that they can take in bulk.

 

Anyway, I don't see it black and white with some escalation units being superior to all others. The flyer ones would be strong against the non-flyer ones, the flyers have issues with ground targets, and ground targets face more issues with the non-flyer ones. GW picked the right combination and if you are having trouble, you might be playing the units wrong or it might be that that particular opponent is a hard counter to your units.

The Thunderhawk does, on paper, look good, I admit- however, it runs into a couple major problems. The first one is that the dang thing is nearly a foot and a half long- with the limitations of the flyer chassis, this means that it typically only gets to really make one pass at things before it is either flying off the table or making really awkward turns that don't allow it to shoot anything of importance. (The main cannon is on a fixed mount, remember.) It will tend to Clown other Str D guns, but the fact that it doesn't make an appearance until turn 2+ mean that the enemy titan is basically going nuts on the remaining 2/3 of your army during that time, and that can be pretty hard to endure. I wouldn't put it completely out of consideration, but I would say that it is at best a niche choice for such an environment.

The Tiger Shark is awful. I don't care how high of BS its crappy blast weapon is, I don't care about pinning. Remember that superheavies cannot Jink, so Evading is useless to it. Riptides in Escalation tend to die pretty instantly to the Str D guns- do you really think that a Warhound isn't going to kill 1-2 Riptides per turn with ease? Tau are actually rather weak in Escalation, generally speaking.

I'm not "having trouble" with Escalation; I wrecked it pretty hard. I just don't think it has even the slightest hint of balance to it, and I think you are drastically overestimating the effect that random S7 shots are going to have on anyone's actual plan in the game.

 

I do see some merit in an army with both the aquilla and a different LoW. A revenant being able to only target two units with their D weapons per turn, might not be able to destroy both.

Maybe not, but it absolutely can destroy one of them, and has a decent shot at both. And if you're bringing an Aquilla and a superheavy, you really don't have enough points to field much of anything else.

Anyway, I don't think the [non-FW] LoWs are needing fixes, not really. I think not everyone is building lists with LoWs in mind and it makes them appear overpowered.

The other players at the tournament I went to brought lists that were designed to deal with Lords of War. I still waded through those armies like they practically weren't even there.

If you remove the Forge World stuff from the equation, like I said, it all comes down to the C'tan and the Revenant. It's less broken, but still pretty broken. T9 GCs with 2+ cover are not really something that most armies can deal with, especially not when they are spewing out Str D hellstorm shots. It's a rather small model, so if we're playing with all of this LOS-blocking terrain you advocate, it's essentially going to be able to get into combat unmolested and then just sort of wade its way through the enemy forces at will, blasting and assaulting anything it wants and hiding in combat to avoid any shooting that could possibly threaten it.

There is no answer. My RAI would be that they hit and affect the original target, not the Void Shield, but there's no actual rules support for that.

The linked list isn't an escalation list, but a FW one. The escalation supplement only allows the mentioned units. FW may allow additional ones, but those aren't issues with the escalation rules. I count 5x FW selections in the list.

 

I will note that the stock powers for the IG psyker are actually pretty awesome in escalation. Mostly the power that requires anything that wants to shoot at them to take leadership tests (even vehicles) or not be able to shoot at all. It's certainly enough to make a revenant reconsider shooting.

-Pax

Typically tournaments that allow Escalation also allow Forge World. There are some that don't, but in my experience they are pretty rare and few between.

I may be remembering it wrong, but I believe that power allows them to choose a different target if they fail the Ld check (rather than lose the shot, like the Shadowseer power.) That means there's very little cost to at least trying for it.

As for your evaluations of the super heavies, I think you are overestimating them (or building underpowered lists...). I think the linked list is weak for escalation, even if the warhound itself is quite strong.

-Pax

I would be intensely curious to see what kind of Escalation list you think can beat the one I posted. Of the many things I might call it, "weak" is not one of them- no other superheavy will survive its T1 shooting (on average), it goes first against lists more often than just about anything else (bar shenanigans with Vect) and it is strongly protected against other Str D weapons as well as deep strikers and has reasonable anti-flyer tech.

 

 But yeah as Pax mentioned they were allowing FW and that could throw things off a bit,though I don't know much FW stuff except the Ork Dreadmob stuff,heh.

 

  I think its working out just as everyone said when they released the Uber stuff into regular game...the ranged D weapons are destroying the game at this point level.About the only ranged D weapon that is close to being balanced would be the Aquila I would think due to its immobility and it ease of destruction to other D weapons.

 

 Do you see this being fully adopted into the tourney scene when the big rules release comes in a few months?

The big FW inclusion is the Warhound, which despite being in the Apoc book isn't given as an option for the Imperium. The choices given to each faction in Escalation are absolutely bizarre, to be honest; if you cut out FW, I'd say your meta essentially degenerates to a combination of Revenants and Transcendent C'tan- the Rev trumps the C'tan, but is much more vulnerable to counter-strategies (since it is more expensive and comes in a faction that doesn't get the same tools that the Imperium does.) However, both of those strategies will pretty consistently beat non-Escalation lists of most types, so the meta becomes pretty closed-off.

I think the Aquilla is too strong for what it is, but it's not even close to on par with the Escalation stuff available- it's rather possible for a normal list to beat an Aquilla if it plays smart (though I think the odds would still be marginally against it, depending on the army.)

I'm not sure what you mean by "when the big rules release comes." Are you talking about the rumors of 7th Edition? Because there's no way that is going to happen, those rumors are complete b*******. Releasing a new edition now would cost them an enormous amount of money- books ain't free, and neither is development time from their employees- and provide virtually no benefit to them. Indeed, if we take the rumors as true, it would be a positive hindrance, since no one would have any reason to buy Escalation/Stronghold/etc anymore, so those books would be dead weight also. GW may not be brilliant, but they're not absolute morons.

Competitive players are pretty universally rejecting Escalation wholesale. There are some attempts to fix it, but I think most of them either end up functionally not allowing superheavies (for example, the Guardian Cup caps them at 550pts and doesn't allow any ranged Str D weapons, which means most factions do not have any options at all) or altering things in a way that either doesn't matter/rebalances things so that a new superheavy is king of the hill.

(To elaborate on that final point- many people suggest just making Str D weapons S10 AP1 Armorbane Ignores Cover or the likes- however, this makes units like the Transcendent C'tan, which now can shrug off its one weakness, Str D guns, absurdly strong. I've seen a dozen or more different fixes, but I don't think I've seen one that I feel "works" yet.)

Knights are as totally different animal from Escalation. Knights are worlds easier to destroy than most other superheavies and they don't put out even close to the same sort of firepower. In fact, their shooting is rather weak in most respects.

Escalation, on the other hand, is pretty much out of control. http://www.3plusplus.net/2014/03/escalation-tournament-report-this-is-why-we-cant-have-nice-things/ is a pretty good example of what I would expect from the game if Escalation is allowed- players with superheavies win or lose the game against each other on the first turn, spoiler armies occasionally eke out a victory, and everything else is pretty much worthless. None of the "normal" armies in the game right now stand any kind of chance against a good superheavy. A very small number of counter-strategies exist (FMCs, Drop Melta, etc) but only a limited number of factions support these strategies and even they are not even going to make a 50% win rate against C'tan, Warhounds, Revenants, and Kustom Stompas.

The gargoyles themselves benefit from Blind to a moderate degree, because it lets them hit on 3s and forces the enemy to hit them on 5s. However, by and large it is used as a setup for a Monstrous Creature getting into the fight, since many of the MCs in the book have very mediocre WS values. Dropping some WS4/5/7/10 guy to WS1 makes a huge difference when every hit is a wound.

I'm with Mike on this one, for whatever it's worth. One test per model.

You get d3 Stomps, yes, which with a one in six chance of removing everything under the template is roughly a 1/3 chance of killing a model if you really want to.

Superheavies are fast, but there are plenty of things in the game that are just as fast or faster. You might as well ask "why is your FMC/jetbikes/fast skimmer/etc ever in assault unless you want him to be?" (Also, superheavy walkers are allowed to move into ruins just like walkers and MCs can.)

Those DemoVets can do some damage if they actually get stuck in, but how are you getting them into combat? T3/5+ is not exactly gonna waltz across the field and IG don't have any assault vehicles. That Knight is gonna get to take some shots at you with its Stubbers and main gun before you get in, so chances are you are not going to be going in with a full squad even before it makes its attacks.

How so? It's not a shooting attack and doesn't resolve from the center, so how are you sniping characters? I can certainly see plating the character and praying for 6s....maybe that's what you mean? Not really a reliable solution to most things. Those stomp attacks fail to deny basic SM PA on 1-5. On 6s they are very impressive, but with stomps only d3 per turn, not exactly a solution to things.

Until FAQed or unless changed by your TO, the six result on Stomp just removes models, it doesn't deal wounds, and thus cannot be reallocated with LOS! rolls. It's not really reliable, but a ~1/3 chance of removing a particular model per turn isn't exactly awful.

I think one of the big differences is that the overall power level is much higher now than it was in 3rd, and much closer to the point of system-breaking. So it's much easier for the extra variance from a new release to really screw up the game or at least add major complications that make it much harder for someone who's unprepared to deal with it. The only 3rd Ed release that I remember really causing problems was one of the Tyranid ones, I think the Mycetic Spore Army, but it feels like every other release in 6th is shaking up the game to an unprecedented degree.

The difference is really in information, not in power level. The internet is a thing now; the game is more well-taught overall. More people are aware of the power combos and more knowledge about how the function and how they're faring in different areas of the world is visible to folks. Other people have already pointed out tons of the 3E game cheese, and make no mistake- there was a LOT of it. I'll throw in my $0.02 with the Blood Angels Rhino rush: Turn 1 drive 12", disembark, Rapid Fire bolters, then assault you.

I don't have one on hand to measure, but having compared it to the regular oval base, it's roughly 15cm by 12cm, give or take 1cm in either direction.

The exact height of the kit will depend on how you pose the legs and such, but 6"-8" is just about on the ball.

Love this army.

I don't enjoy this game at all, I only play it as a form of ritualistic self-flagellation to prove my dedication to God.

I thought the Stompa was slightly smaller than that, more like 7.5"-8". Knights are 8"-8.5".