Guest Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Another game. 3 Black Knights from a RW command squad, as before. Entered and killed 6 grey hunters with 6 shots. Lost a guy to scout snipers. Passed moral. Assaulted a drop pod. Scratched a single HP off in two turns (mine and his). Ditched the pod. Advanced on Mephiston (1 wound remaining). Killed the model with plasma. Got assaulted by Logan (SW chapter master) and one wolf guard. Killed the wolf guard in overwatch. Died to Logan in assault. I like this unit. The double tapping TL plas from a relentless outflanking model is impressive. They have proven to be worth terminator costs for their shooting ability. Been thinking unit would benefit from a character in the unit, both for challenge shenanigans and for precision shooting. Not very impressive in assault, interestingly enough. Unit reminds me of genestealers, but without the numbers. They have 4 swings each on the charge, plus hammer of wrath (I keep forgetting this), but none of their basic weapons deny armor saves with anything better than rending. Unit does have hit-n-run, so it does have ability to leave combat and continue shooting later. Defensively, they have T5 and skilled rider, so they often have 4+ cover and can freely use actual cover to limit enemy charges. Started comparing the FA squad version and Command squad version. Command Squad (RW): -Command squad has no stock character -Costs 40pts per model -Uses no slot (does require bike/sammael HQ) -Character options have no AT or melta bomb access. -Two character options (champion and apothecary) -Champion only has an unwieldy weapon option. -Squad size capped at 5 models -Banner Access. FA version -Has a stock character -Only one character option -Stock character has both initiative order power weapon option and melta bomb access -Squad size capped at 10 models, no combat squads -42 points per model. I think there's a lot of value in character versions of these. Precision shots with TL rapid plasma should be useful. Also, if assaulting a unit with a single power weapon character, my character can challenge, which should enable the rest of the squad to survive enough to hit-n-run away. I'm thinking about running two units of the FA versions and one of the Command Squad, each with just 3 members. I'll keep the command squad at 3 stock models with no upgrades, but the FA versions will gain melta bombs. That's 382pts. I have tested the special grenade launchers, but I've found them somewhat lacking so far. I think if I add a 4th member to a squad, the grenade launcher has merit, but with just 3 members, the loss of the additional plasma is just too great. They do seem like they offer good synergy to other units, though I have yet to find a perfect way to capitalize on this. If I do this, it would be 506pts for the 3 squads of 4. Hmm... -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Isn't this the exact squad I said had a ton of merit than got flamed wt for them being too costly... Their CC ability is to keep them safe from shooting. Hit and run boyo. 3 just isn't enough 6 is the sweet spot. The grenade launcher is insanely powerful. Use it more on bigger squads. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 I've played a few games with them and I've found them to be really good with the new darkshroud speeder but only at games over 1500. That army just needs bodies. I have considered running the fast attack version or a second command squad to help but you need to get around 2k for that to be cost effective. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papa Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 3 just isn't enough 6 is the sweet spot. The grenade launcher is insanely powerful. Use it more on bigger squads. yeah you need the bodies. I also like the grenade launchers. dropping T4 down to T3 lets the plasma double out multi wound models and opens things up for bolters to become really effective. I've taken out screamer star with their 2+ reroll using that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 Isn't this the exact squad I said had a ton of merit than got flamed wt for them being too costly... Let's be fair here: even Pax admits that his dice averages (and the opponents) were pretty off the charts there. Killing three AV10 tanks with three Plasmaguns? That's rather unlikely (nevermind the fact that his opponent let him get rear armor for some reason.) And then the Russ, and the Wolves, and everything else? Yeah. That's pretty immensely unlikely. Three T5/3+ guys just shouldn't be alive all that long against most armies. The problem with Black Knights/Ravenwing Command is not their offensive output- they have great guns and pretty okay melee weapons with good stats to back them up. Their problem is survivability- a unit of three or five bikes are gonna die pretty easily to a lot of things, even with 4+ cover. The first time someone shoots a Wave Serpent, or some Fire Warriors, or some Grav Centurions at you, the unit is gonna come to pieces pretty quickly, and even a minimum-sized squad is far from cheap. They're hardly an awful unit- if, for whatever reason, they get left alone to do their thing, they can inflict a fair amount of damage and the grenade launcher is actually quite excellent, since it pushes things down to that critical WS/I3 or T3 threshold that makes them a lot easier to kill. But it keeps coming back around to survivability, and if you aren't alive it doesn't matter how awesome you are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gorgosaurusrex Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 The last game I played with my Tyranids saw a single Genestealer wipe out a unit of 5 Stealth Suits followed by a unit of 3 Crisis Suits (the Stealer hid in LoS blocking terrain after running down the Stealthsuits and got a new assault next turn). It was great, but that doesn't make Genestealers a good unit lol. As AbusePuppy mentioned, the issue with Black Knights is their survivablity. They are a great unit offensively... IF they survive long enough. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 The rad GL doesn't apply the -1 toughness to the rest of the unit's shooting, does it? Was under the impression that the shots are all resolved at the same time, so if the rad shell hits, the plasma is still wounding at regular toughness, then if another unit hits, that is at -1 toughness. I could have this wrong. Isn't this the exact squad I said had a ton of merit than got flamed wt for them being too costly...Their CC ability is to keep them safe from shooting. Hit and run boyo.3 just isn't enough 6 is the sweet spot.The grenade launcher is insanely powerful. Use it more on bigger squads. Did I flame you, or was it another? Sorry if it was me. I don't want 6 because I don't want to draw that much attention to the unit. Right now, they survive because of how small the unit is. Las game had lots of viable targets to shoot and the bikes were only a 120pt unit. At 240pts, I'd think they'd die faster, rather than being more durable. I hate that they don't the combat squad rule. Let's be fair here: even Pax admits that his dice averages (and the opponents) were pretty off the charts there. Killing three AV10 tanks with three Plasmaguns? That's rather unlikely (nevermind the fact that his opponent let him get rear armor for some reason.) And then the Russ, and the Wolves, and everything else? Yeah. That's pretty immensely unlikely. Three T5/3+ guys just shouldn't be alive all that long against most armies. The problem with Black Knights/Ravenwing Command is not their offensive output- they have great guns and pretty okay melee weapons with good stats to back them up. Their problem is survivability- a unit of three or five bikes are gonna die pretty easily to a lot of things, even with 4+ cover. The first time someone shoots a Wave Serpent, or some Fire Warriors, or some Grav Centurions at you, the unit is gonna come to pieces pretty quickly, and even a minimum-sized squad is far from cheap. They're hardly an awful unit- if, for whatever reason, they get left alone to do their thing, they can inflict a fair amount of damage and the grenade launcher is actually quite excellent, since it pushes things down to that critical WS/I3 or T3 threshold that makes them a lot easier to kill. But it keeps coming back around to survivability, and if you aren't alive it doesn't matter how awesome you are. It's true, my die rolls have been pretty OP lately. Not perfect, but still pretty amazing. I had a Leman Russ BT in the last game. Logan podded down with 5 Combi-melta WG and a Cyclone terminator WG set on destroying that Russ. 5 pens and 1 glance. All saved from the 4+ PFG. As for the hydras, His were backfield and I had outflank. This was vanguard strike. Even if his were facing backwards, I had the movement to get side or rear armor (both 10). BS4, 6 TL shots at S7, +1 on the vehicle damage table. Rolls may have been above average, but against the hydras, it wasn't by that much - they just aren't much of a durable unit. Anyway, I've been fielding my black knights as a glass hammer unit, not as any sort of durable firing platform. If they arrive from outflank reserve and kill anything, they've done their job. Although my die rolling has been above average, it has been so for two games in a row, so maybe the unit is behaving normally....Anyway, at 120pts, they are certainly killing their points worth. I suspect the reason they aren't drawing as much fire as they'd normally bring is due to the rest of my list, which last time include two Las devastator squads, two vendettas, a darkshroud, a whirlwind, two chimeras, my warlord with a platoon command squad, and a leman russ battle tank all within 18" of the point the Bikes entered from. (army was mostly turtled because opponent was a pod army and I didn't bring interceptor weapons this time.) -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeroZero Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 I don't Feel that 240 is a "big threat" point level. In all fairness its just above 5 terms with a CML. Just a lot faster. Grenades in pairs make assaults a lot smoother, hit on 3 wound on 3 etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 2, 2014 Report Share Posted January 2, 2014 I don't Feel that 240 is a "big threat" point level. In all fairness its just above 5 terms with a CML. Just a lot faster. Grenades in pairs make assaults a lot smoother, hit on 3 wound on 3 etc. I do agree that grenades are impressive, but they also take away from the rest of the shooting ability of the unit. At 40-42pts, they are very expensive to the unit. Still, I will think about it. -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 The rad GL doesn't apply the -1 toughness to the rest of the unit's shooting, does it? Was under the impression that the shots are all resolved at the same time, so if the rad shell hits, the plasma is still wounding at regular toughness, then if another unit hits, that is at -1 toughness. I could have this wrong. It's actually much better than that- the effects of the Grenades last until the end of the turn, so the whole rest of your army is wounding on the reduced toughness. As for the hydras, His were backfield and I had outflank. This was vanguard strike. Even if his were facing backwards, I had the movement to get side or rear armor (both 10). BS4, 6 TL shots at S7, +1 on the vehicle damage table. Rolls may have been above average, but against the hydras, it wasn't by that much - they just aren't much of a durable unit. I thought Hydras were side AV12? Guess not. That does make it more likely, I suppose, though really he should've been using the squadron rules to make sure he had front armor facing all directions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 3, 2014 Report Share Posted January 3, 2014 I thought Hydras were side AV12? Guess not. That does make it more likely, I suppose, though really he should've been using the squadron rules to make sure he had front armor facing all directions. Completely agree. Though, to be fair, you and I seem to be the only ones that know what the squadron rules are.... -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Okay, new idea. I take IG stormtroopers and have them arrive with the black knights. With the target at -1 toughness, the hot-shot las-guns should actually be impressive, plus could put a few melta guns in there so if the the target is in a tough vehicle, we can pop it so the knights can shoot in... Might not be worth the points... -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 That's actually not too shabby an idea- the biggest problem with Stormtroopers is that S3 is just really weak. With Doom, Rad, Enfeeble, or some other effect that lets you wound more often, they could do some real damage. The fact that the Stormtroopers can bring a pair of Plasmaguns to the party themselves doesn't hurt any, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 That's actually not too shabby an idea- the biggest problem with Stormtroopers is that S3 is just really weak. With Doom, Rad, Enfeeble, or some other effect that lets you wound more often, they could do some real damage. The fact that the Stormtroopers can bring a pair of Plasmaguns to the party themselves doesn't hurt any, either. That's my thinking, the rad knocks them to T3 or T2, then the S3 is able to wound - the ST unit is great beyond this one weak point of having major trouble wounding things. You think plas is the right approach? Was thinking melta guns because I'd already have the plas on the bikes, plus the MG are cheaper. -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Meltaguns would give you a slightly more flexible unit, but Plasma would be doing their main job better- Plasma on the bikes is nice, certainly, but there's not really such a thing as too many shots on a target. If you wanted to keep them cheap, I suppose you could just drop special weapons entirely; I'd definitely have to think over what kind of list I would be putting them into and what else it has/needs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted January 5, 2014 Report Share Posted January 5, 2014 Yeah, and my lists are strange. Currently I'm running this: 2k DA+IG allies DA Warlord - Librarian (TDA, Force Axe, Lion's Roar, Portable Forcefield Generator, Infravisor, Divination) HQ Sammael (Sableclaw) HQ RW Command Squad (3) Troops Scout Squad (5, Cloaks, ML+Flakk, Combi-Melta) Troops Scout Squad (5, Cloaks, ML+Flakk, Combi-Melta) Fast Darkshroud (Assault Cannon) HS Whirlwind HS Devastators (5, 4x lascannons, Combi-flamer) HS Devastators (5, 4x lascannons, Combi-flamer) Allied IG HQ Primaris Psyker (Force Staff, Biomancy) Troops Platoon CS (5, GL, Chenkov) IS1 (10, Flamer) -Chimera (Hull HF) IS2 (10, Flamer) -Chimera (Hull HF) Fast Vendettas (2) HS Leman Russ Battle Tank (Pask, Hull HF) Total is 2k even. Used it last wednesday and I'll use it again today. List will get tweaked again by this coming wednesday. -Pax Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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