Apoc datasheets Vs GW dataslates?

[Guest]

Just wondering on this one, how are they different? I mean, there are lots of apoc datasheets that would really balance some of the more brutal escalation threats. I've seen people allow GW dataslates in normal play, but the apoc ones don't seem to be kosher, though I can't figure out why (doesn't seem to be a balance issue).

-Pax

[InfestedKerrigan]

Perhaps it is out of principle.  Apoc is an optional supplement, as are Apoc Datasheets.  Standard Datasheets are for Standard Games.

[AbusePuppy]

Functionally they are relatively similar- they involve taking a certain combination of units and grant several abilities to the units in the formation.

 

However, there are some important differences in them. The Apocalypse Formations have a number of additional special rules attached to them involving reserves, unit combinations, etc. (For example, many Apocalypse formations combine different units into squads, even when they couldn't normally do so.)

 

The Apocalypse formations are also balanced very differently, which shouldn't be surprising; they typically hand out much larger bonuses to normal units, since these bonuses are needed in order to be effective on the huge battlefields they fight in. Witness the Wraithknight formation, which adds the number of models in the formation to their movement rate, charge range, WS, and BS. Even just a basic formation of them means that they are threatening pretty reliable first-turn charges (15" move, 2d6+3" charge range) and are suddenly WS/BS7.

[Guest]

Functionally they are relatively similar- they involve taking a certain combination of units and grant several abilities to the units in the formation.

 

However, there are some important differences in them. The Apocalypse Formations have a number of additional special rules attached to them involving reserves, unit combinations, etc. (For example, many Apocalypse formations combine different units into squads, even when they couldn't normally do so.)

 

The Apocalypse formations are also balanced very differently, which shouldn't be surprising; they typically hand out much larger bonuses to normal units, since these bonuses are needed in order to be effective on the huge battlefields they fight in. Witness the Wraithknight formation, which adds the number of models in the formation to their movement rate, charge range, WS, and BS. Even just a basic formation of them means that they are threatening pretty reliable first-turn charges (15" move, 2d6+3" charge range) and are suddenly WS/BS7.

How come we always use [light] eldar options to illustrate unbalance in 40k...? First revenants, now this.

 

The apocalypse formations are balanced to make standard units function better against things like D weapons and super heavies. In the example formation, you're looking at a minimum 720pts of wraithknights. A comparable opponent is a warhound scout titan at the same 720pts... Against a warhound, the wraithknights do need this sort of buff....

 

The apoc formations no longer have a point cost added, so really it's just a buff to existing units to make them more balanced amongst the Lords of War.

 

Here, another formation that's a bit more on the mark for balance that I'm trying to illustrate:

 

Ravager Titan Hunters (found in main apoc book).

3-5 DE ravagers. Command vehicle get's an extra weapon that, if it hits, allows all the dark lances in the formation to ignore void shieilds, and both holo and power fields. In other words, it allows units designed for AT already, to have additional odds at AT in apocalyse. It doesn't offer any special bonuses against models without void shieilds, power fields, or holo-fields.

-Pax

[AbusePuppy]

I was just picking an example off the top of my head- there's also the Heldrake formation that lets them start on the table (and perform a pregame Vector Strike), the Riptide one that lets them reroll Nova attempts as well as other stuff, etc.

 

Moreover, many of the Apocalypse formations refer to rules that don't exist in 40K, like strategy points, scheduled breaks, etc. You certainly could modify them so that they functioned, but those are pretty clear indicators that they aren't really intended to be part of the normal game.

 

Introducing Apoc Formations to fix the problem with superheavies is  taking one problematic element in the game and adding another problem to try and solve it, which is rather backwards thinking.