galahad911

Wasn't that Valedor book an Apoc book? I know there are Tyranid formations or something in there that aren't allowed in normal 40k games.

Wait, so you would rather there be no ruling until there's some arbitrary margin of victory on a vote? Having things that are not universally accepted ruled on so that you know what the rules are before you decide whether or not you want to participate is the point of the entire endeavor. Here, think of it this way, hypothetically there's a tournament in February some place out of state. You don't know whether or not your paint score is going to affect overall scores enough to make it a really important part of your score. Wouldn't you rather know the answer to that question before you go? Wouldn't it be good to know that the same answer is going to count for most any event you go to so that you can get better paint done, or not go at all?

Not every question addressed is about shenanigans. In fact, I would venture the statement that the vast majority of them are not. Acting like they are just because you don't like what they're doing only makes you appear petty. Not getting a ruling on things like the combined arms question before you go to an event just because there wasn't a super majority pretty much defeats the purpose of doing the thing in the first place.

I already bought the reprinting of Fortress America. Why couldn't you have posted this like a year ago? hahaha

That part is easy:  reserve them.

Wait, what? Advancing and getting objectives? Reserve them? O.o

Just what the world needs, another Battle Company list. hahahahahaha

In this edition, shooting firepower has risen so much that roughly 150 AM wounds is really only likely to hold out for a few turns. When opposing armies are commonly throwing out 100 or so strength 6+ shots a turn and you really only have those heavy weapon teams to do anything outside of melee, it seems to me an army like this is just going to take it on the chin just about every game. 

This is the list of allowed Superheavy/Gargantuans. If it's not on this list, then it is not legal.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/community/frontline-gamings-independent-tournament-circuit/itc-2015-season-40k-tournament-format/

I think this format should appeal to people from a sense of nostalgia, not a sense of balance. As I already noted, my army (which won the last annihilation) fits neatly into this format. That means that I lose almost nothing (+1 WS for a couple units basically) and many of my opponents (My first round opponent had at least one formation and an army that may not be even fieldable, my second round had multiple knights and my third round opponent had flying monstrous creatures and alternative detachments) are made weaker. So, in actuality, it becomes less balanced. :)

You had a fort. I thought Aaron won.

Really? You want to restart with a personal attack in a completely different thread? That's the action you want to take when this has been dead since Monday?

Okay, I guess I'll respond in kind...

Grow the [big bad swear word] up.

Yeah, I'm there too.

I dropped it into their actual rules question form since their forums are generally dead most times. We'll see if I get a response.

Pg. 33 of the PDF of the rules I've been using since 7th started....

Last paragraph of Generate Warp Charge

It, after resolving a psychic action - such as manifesting a psychic power - the player

the player whose turn it is has 0 warp charge remaining, the Psychic phase ends. The Psychic

phase also ends if you either cannot, or choose not to, resolve any more psychic actions. When the psychic

phase ends, all remaining Warp Charge points belonging to both players (if any) are lost and the Shooting 

phase begins.

So, if the end of the phase is a defined point in time, then this paragraph, in the much more specific psychic phase section of the rule book, tells you what to do during that point in time. In that point in time, all warp charge points are lost, and the Shooting phase begins. That's it. Nothing about manifesting powers or anything else.

Your question I think best encapsulates the question presented.  

 

As stated, I can see both sides of this argument, I just think the argument you and Galahad are making is more convoluted because it (at face value, IMO) flies in the face of the final sentence of the conclave rule.  I just read it like I do the automated weapon rule or other things like it, and, while I can see how you can finagle it to say that they can't cast, it seems to me that it's just an order of operation thing and not a strict restriction.  

 

Again, I don't TRULY care, because I don't use wussy psykers or silly beakies.

 

I swear, someone who has been playing as long as you have, and been on as many forums, and been in as many rules discussions as you must have by now, I don't understand how you see that sentence and aren't reminded of several rules arguments over the years where the entire point a person was standing on was, "Well, if they meant that, they would have just said that!" I can't even count the number of times I've read that line.

Wow, way to not even address the actual question. Why not ask them if the conclave works the way you insist it does. Or, you know what, don't. I'll take care of that for you.

It's so funny. Years and years ago, a guy went to thr ard boyz finals and wanted the rules to work a certain way in his own favor and framed his question to the rules judge very,very carefully to get the answer he got. Great job being like that guy.

Actually, West Rider aaid you'd only get one casting and you were Johnny on the Spot with that paragraph. No one asked for it. But you sure had it ready to show everyone the loophole you found that, if read a certain way, would let you summon twice. So in fact, all this is about you wanting to cast a single power multiple times. I don't know anyone who natively speaks English that would feel the need to look up what until the end of the phase means. That you did speaks to you wanting to find it to mean something other than until the end of the phase.

Did you really need to look up what until end of phase meant? Or did you go looking for advantage?

Nevermind. Cast your spells twice. You and I won't ever play anyway.

That you don't see that as the duration of an effect is mind boggling to me. It says what happens and for how long.

In fact, when I get home I'll use the FLG rules question form and act shocked when it turns out that you can't cast your spells twice in ITC events.

So no. Okay. Whatever. Cast your spells twice against whoever lets you get away with it.

So, "until the end of the phase" isn't the duration of how long they cannot manifest powers? Is that not what it says?

It doesn't read like that though. Those things give you explicit instructions. This is the duration of an effect ending. Nominated guy takes their powers until end of phase. Effect... Duration. If he's got their powers until the end of the phase, how are they using stuff he has until the end of the phase?

Gonna quote myself, which feels really odd. lol?

One of you answer this? How are the secondary guy using something the nominated guy has until the end of the phase?

What if they want to cast a different power?  Again, WHY would they write up "until the end of the phase" if they intended it to not allow manifesting powers period?  

 

Again, I think you've come up with a labyrinthine, but acceptable reason for your argument, I just think it is too circuitous and unnecessary when a more straight-forward reading of the rules comes up with just casting at the end of the phase.  

Why would casting a different power be relevant? If it works the way you and IK say it does, then you are able to cast anything you have twice.

If your argument is that GW writes [big bad swear word]ty rules and are using a byzantine collection of rules written by GW to hold up a ruling, then I think you shot your own argument in the foot.

 

Again, why include that last bit of words if the intent was to have the psykers cast no other powers.  I know arguing about intent is stupid, but I find the convoluted rules lawyering going on to be very strange.  (if this, then this, so therefore this!)  RAW on the page, it reads just like automated fire (which fires at the end of the shooting phase) or morale checks (happen at the end of the phase).  

It doesn't read like that though. Those things give you explicit instructions. This is the duration of an effect ending. Nominated guy takes their powers until end of phase. Effect... Duration. If he's got their powers until the end of the phase, how are they using stuff he has until the end of the phase?

You are, in my opinion, manipulating the rules to cast spells twice that you only have one of when, again in my opinion, that is not an intended effect. You want to cast your spells twice that you only rolled once and are shocked that I'd call it lawyering? It doesn't matter what you intend to use it for. If you only rolled 1 invisibility, and cast it with the nominated guy and then at the end of the phase want to cast it again, on a different unit with the libby who actually rolled the power, that sure as hell seems to be to be above and beyond the intended effect of the formation.

Okay dude. Have at it. If your friends are okay with this level of rules lawyering then good on you. If you can find an event where the guy running it is cool with this. Great! 

While GW does suck at writing rules, it makes no sense to add "until the end of the phase." Why print 6 extra words when they could've put a period there? I have no horse in this race, space marines are dumb and the psychic phase is for weenies.

Because they do dumb [big bad swear word] like that all the time. And it causes dumb discussions like this one.