galahad911

And it explicitly tells you actively to resolve it at the end of the phase. The Conclave gives no positive instruction, just a restriction.

This! OMG this! 

Okay then, give me an end of phase, non mandatory rule.

Totally didn't read this thread.  FWIW, I think Infested is right, in the same way that automated fire weapons fire last at the end of the shooting phase.  They don't miss out on shooting because they fire at the end of the shooting phase.  

 

There's also no reason that the conclave needs a negative, plenty of formations are just good.  

Automated weapons fire is mandatory. The rules give you a set of instructions, and you follow them. This is not the same thing. This doesn't say that they do something at the end of the phase, it says that they cannot do something until then. So you're saying that you get to the end of the phase, say wait, hold up, I still want to do voluntary things that happen during this phase, but have it still be the end of the phase.

That start and end of a phase paragraph is for mandatory things that happen at the end, like grounding checks, morale tests, and yes, automated fire, which is mandatory.

Empyric Channeling says that those Libbies "cannot cast until the end of the phase."  Page 17 BRB says the "end of the phase" is a timeframe that things happen, but they happen after anything that doesn't happen at the "end of the phase."

 

Notably, it does not say "cannot cast for the remainder of the phase."  It does not say "cannot cast for the remainder of your turn."  It does not say "cannot cast until your next turn." 

Yes, very specific things that you are told to do then. Read that paragraph again. "Likewise, any rule that says and action or event happens at the end of a particular phase is always resolved... ect" The formation rules tell you that you can't do something until end of phase, but it doesn't give you permission to do whatever you like. In order for you to use that paragraph you need to be specifically told what to do. This isn't voluntary decision time anymore, that was during the phase.

Clinging onto it not saying you cannot cast at all in order to cast twice a spell you only know once is gamey at best.

Yes, in this discussion as it currently stands, we are only looking at the Conclave, not anything else.  Mind you, I haven't played with the conclave, this is just how I read the order of operations as outlined in the BRB and in Empyric Channeling.  Actually, I'll outline how the Psychic Turn is laid out, as I read it.  Or at least the best I can not having my BRB on me at work.

 

{Movement Phase Ends}

{Psychic Phase Begins}

{Beginning of Psychic Phase - Actions and Events that happen before anything else in the Phase}

-Add d6 Warp Charges to your pool.

-Tally your Pool and your Opponents Pool

-Nominate a Libby, now knows all powers of Mates within 12" until end of psy phase.  Mates "cannot manifest until the end of psychic phase"

{Beginning of Psychic Phase Ends as no other Actions/Events that take place "at the beginning of the psychic phase."}

-Pick a Psyker to Manifest a Power.  Cannot pick a Conclave Mate within 12" of the Nominated, well technically you could, but they are unable to manifest yet.  So, you pick the Nominated, and Manifest his first power.  You spend some dice.

-Pick a Psyker to Manifest a Power.  This continues, and you can bounce between available Psykers, but a single unit cannot cast the same spell more than once. 

---Let us assume the Nominated casts what I want him to cast and I still have 4 Charges left.  He is done casting.  I don't have any other casters that I want to use at this moment, so...

{End of Psychic Phase, Actions and Events that happen after everything else in the phase}

-Nominated no longer has access to Mates powers

-We are now at the End of the psychic phase, and are able to cast with the mates as they "cannot manifest until the end of the phase" and we are at the end of the phase.  I have 4 WC, I am able to Manifest.  If I had 0 WC, I wouldn't be able to manifest.

-Psychic Phase section says the last thing to happen in the phase before the Shooting phase begins is both players Pools are reduced to 0

{Psychic Phase Ends}

{Shooting Phase Begins}

{Beginning of Shooting Phase, Actions Events that happen before everything else this phase}

Italicized by me. Where did you find specific permission to do that?

It's isn't enough to say that it doesn't say you can't.

I'm an hour and a half into my work shift. ;)  No sleeping when the Sun is down.

 

Yeah, but in your 20 page discussions, people cite rules, you guys are just citing feelings.  And I get the point of your feelings, but your feelings are not the rules, and the rules aren't doing what your feelings want them to do. 

 

 

 

Who says anything about going back?  It says "cannot manifest...until the end of the psychic phase."  The Other Quoted Paragraph tells you what the "end of the phase" is and what happens there.  It says that things that happen at the end of the phase happen after every other action in the phase has been done, just like things that happen at the beginning of the phase happen before every other action in the phase has been done.  No one is "going back."  Manifesting isn't a phase of the Psychic Phase.  Manifesting is an action or event that happens during the Psychic phase.

Yes, during, not at the end. Unless you are specifically told to do something at the end, it's the end. You're not specifically told you can do something here, you're told you CANNOT do something until then. Unless you find something giving you permission to manifest your powers at the end of the phase, you can't.

And simply put, that you want all of the benefits of the conclave and none of the negatives is hilarious to me. rofl

The way I read it, the others get to cast, but they have to be the last psykers to Cast during my turn.  So if I had the 4 Conclave within 12 of each other, boost the Chosen One, cast his power, and then cast with the other 3, my GK Libbies wouldn't be able to cast.

 

 

It is pretty straight forward.

 

If they were not meant to use their abilities until your next turn it would say that.  It doesn't.

Right here!!! It does not say they manifest at the end, it says they CANNOT until the end. If you're at the end, you can't go back. OMG dude, read your own posts.

So, librarian 2 has invisibility, and passes it to Libby 1 because he's within 12". Libbey 1 casts successfully that invisibility. So not only do you want to cast easier, but you want to cast a second instance on invisibility "at the end of the phase" even though you only rolled invisibility once?

How can something last until the end of a phase, end, and it still be that phase? Yes, there are things you do at the end of phases, like tyrannocyte shooting, and morale checks, grounding tests, etc. This doesn't say at the end of the phase, cast your spells. It is an effect, with a given duration of, until the end of the phase. So, again, if the duration has expired, so the phase has ended, how are you going back and casting?

...

The second quote is from pg 17 of BRB.  The first two sentences say that things that happen at the Start of your phase are done before you do anything else in that phase.  Two examples would be Rolling for your d6 Warp Charges and Nominating a Librarian in the Conclave.  The third sentence says that anything that happens at the End of the phase is done after you do anything else you can do in that phase, it has to be the last thing you do "that phase, before the next phase (if any) starts."  This would be the Remaining Libbies Manifesting their powers and the Nominated Librarian 'forgetting' the powers.  

 

Does that help?

How is it the end of the phase if you're still manifesting powers? We're not talking about a thing that happens, like morale checks or the like, we're talking about a duration. If something pursists through the end of an event, the event is over, and then the effect ends.

275 points for 10 Eldar Jetbikes with splinter cannons and haywire grenades. Splinter cannons are 6 poisoned shots a piece, right?

That sounds pretty nasty strong to me for 27.5 ppm very cool.

In the Space Marine codex, some parts of the Chapter Tactics rule apply to models- this includes things like the Hit and Run rule from White Scars, the Stealth rule from Raven Guard, the Bolter Drill rule from Imperial Fists, etc. These rules are not affected by the presence of other models in the unit; each model will have them (or not) based on its affiliation.

 

On the other hand, a smaller number of rules refer to units with a particular Chapter Tactic. The codex clarifies that, for these purposes at least, any unit containing two or more Chapter Tactics counts for neither when determining whether they benefit from these rules. The Raven Guard rule for +1 to Night Fighting, the White Scars rule for rerolling Run distances, and the Black Templars rule for gaining Rage/CA when shot at are the only ones I'm aware of (although I suspect there's one or two more in the FW Tactics.)

 

In short, the ITC ruling on the subject would not have changed deathstars significantly regardless of how the vote went- it would not deny Hit and Run, Skilled Rider, Feel No Pain, or any of the other relevant special rules granted by Chapter Tactics.

Unless, of course, the guy writing the rule change knows about this loophole and writes the rule change in order to do what the poll question asked. In which case, if the vote had gone against the SM players I am more than willing to bet that Reece would've written it to function as the poll question asked, and not how you have it interpreted here.

Emp Channeling says they cannot Manifest their Powers until the End of the Phase.  That is when.  Does it say you can during the Beginning of the Phase?  No.  Does it say you can during the "Middle" of the Phase?  No.  Does it say you can during the End of the Phase?  Yes. 

The BRB says that the "End of the Phase" happens after all OTHER actions are done, so after all your other Psykers have done everything you are having them do, you can then Manifest your powers, because that happens at the End of the Phase, before the Next Phase starts.

Okay, so you want your guy to take everyone's powers and cast on a 2+ with the only cost being that the others only have to be last in the casting order? That seems fair to you? How are you doing something that you do during the phase at the end of the phase? Isn't the end of the phase, by definition, after ALL the things you do during that phase is finished. It's not enough casting most anything you want with the exact number of dice, maybe 1 more?

It really is amazing that wraith knights are perfectly cool, in fact, take 3 while you're at it, but anything at all by FW would be blanket written off for lack of balance. Just amazing...

It's amazing to me that a player getting hundreds of extra points in free transports is actually complaining about having a restriction placed on a list that is, by it's very nature, well beyond the point level of a given game.

I think if we're going to have a thread that talks about possibilities, it does us little good to not do that.  So Pretre, I think a better question is "okay if we DID WANT composition, THEN how would we do it".

 

Answers to that question are going to help more.

 

So i offered a suggestion as to how one might approach it if we DID want composition.  I think it is subjective (duh), I think people will always complain but those are the necessary COSTS of a better time for the majority.  

 

T.O.'s cannot make everyone happy.  Can't be done.  We get paid Zero dollars and Zero cents for what we do.  So there's a DEFINITE point at which a T.O. has to blank out the noise, make the decision and go so people can get to the list building.  At some point someone has ot make the actual DECISION.   And once you're actually playing, all this posturing and worrying fades away nd the reality of the battle takes center stage anyways so we spend an AWFUL lot of time worrying about small things.

 

What you WILL see when you introduce composition is at least an attempt not to be penalized by composition.  You will see LESS people lying to themselves, over time, about the power level of the list they bring (if power is the issue) or the lack of a story (in the case of the general structure/fluff being the focus).  Every T.O. will care to varying degrees about both and that will influence the meta strongly, as players get the feel for how their lists are graded.  Someone will complain about that too because munchkin gamers live in a fantasy world where they believe gaming should somehow all be one way and one way only so you can plug and play your uber power list list and the meta will always reward it the same.  That's just not realistic.  Its a fantasy.  Even the ITC knows that and tells T.O.'s to change it as they feel they need to.

 

Cant eliminate unpleasant people.  Munchkins (power gamers) are here to stay.  You can make it less rewarding, though.  Composition does that.  Imperfectly, yes.  With ripple effects, yes.  But by and large, I'm okay with that because nothing we do lacks some kind of ripple.

 

Example Rubric items for discussion?

 

1Pt:  Army has at least 25% of its points spent on troops.

1pt.  Army has been painted appropriate colors for its storyline.

1pt  Army Has no more than one named character

3pt  Army utilizes at least twelve different unit entries.

2pt  Army utilizes at least ten different unit entries.

1pt  Army utilizes at least 8 different unit entries.

 

 

Just quickj ideas i\I had sitting here.  I havent fleshed them out and Im sure theres more people could add.

You do realize that just because an army has some % of troops that that has little to no real effect on balance across lists right? If an Eldar list took +25% of scatter bikes, and a Tyranid list took +25% of ANY of their troops and they get the SAME credit that that is no where approaching fair right? %'s of battlefield roles are not an effective comp. Note the period.

Named characters are not even remotely created equal. A blanket negative on them is so much an outdated concept... smh

If all codices had a large variety of good entries, then these other things would be good, but in reality you're only rewarding the already powerful armies because they all have a large variety of good units to choose from. You're only further punishing the books with very few good choices. This is not going to balance the lists across an event, it's only going to reward points to the ones like Eldar, Necrons, and SM that have a large variety of strong choices. These armies don't need any more help!

I'm not saying some form of artificial balance isn't needed, but the ones you're suggesting are not going to have the desired effect.

That's also why I don't think we'll see eye to eye on this.  It's much more important to me to compete for the best sportsman or best painted, since those are the aspects of the hobby I most enjoy.  However, my opinion of AP's and Alex's lists are still valid, regardless of the results of the tournament.  It remains my hope that AP gains a lesson or insight from this experience beyond the actual top placement results.  That's all I'm saying. 

So because someone plays at a competitive tournament with intent of winning the event, which differs almost completely to your goal at the same event, then they should be gaining lessons or insight because, reasons? You do realize that people participate in 40k for different reasons and that your reasons are no more valid, or right, or even noble, than anyone else's reason. The implications that you make by saying anyone has a lesson to learn while playing in a 40k tournament make YOU sound like the person who has lessons to learn. 

You can only pull up anchors during the movement phase, so if you get assaulted you'll always have at least one full combat round before you can pick up stakes.

 

With a White Scars or Drop Pod Battle Company, you can have a LOT of units in your face right away- Tau have always struggled with fast melee units, and the Stormsurge is no different.

Okay, so you lose 1 pile in, and 1-3 stomps. You made it sound like they could never do either of those things.

So, pods or whatever come down, if you don't move your 12" away then you allowed them to assault you. Sounds like user error to me.

Multiple Stormsurges as part of a single unit can't be compared to multiple Wraithknights at all. Locking the whole unit down with a single Tactical Squad is entirely possible- and remember, they can't move (not even to make pile-ins) or Stomp when locked in combat and are only T6/3+.

Why would you leave your anchors on if you're locked in combat? O.o

Besides, if tactical squads are assaulting things this important in your lines, the game is likely over anyway.

So, if 2 librarians are joined together into a squad, it is 1 unit. If either of those librarians manifests a power, then that unit has manifested that power. Reguardless or what unit those 2 librarians joins, if they manifest a power, then a model in that unit is manifesting a power, therefore that unit is manifesting a power. When you make multiple psykers join a single unit to protect them from shooting attacks, then you can't just not have it be a single unit when you want to manifest powers. It is a single unit. If you get the benefit of being in a unit when you're shot at, or making close combat attacks even though the librarian isn't in base to base contact but is within 2" of another squad member, then you also get the negatives that comes with being a single unit and trying to manifest powers.

Well, after burrowing into the rules I notice that Force "is a blessing psychic power that targets the Psyker and his unit, all of the target's weapons that have the Force special rule gain the Instant Death...etc"

 

So if a Psyker joining a unit with other psykers was already considered to make them all one uber psyker unit then why would they need to say "His unit" 

 

Wouldn't that already be part of the IC joining the unit making them a psychic unit redundant?

 

And B. Oh hey.. check that out.. I no longer have to cast force 5 times. cool.

Hey, in the ITC league, we use the ITC rulings on this stuff. As Fluger linked in the first response to the OP, the ITC has ruled that if your IC psykers all join one unit, then that unit can only do a power once. Trying to find things in the rules to undermine that isn't relevant. The format of the league is what makes it this way.

Between Malanthropes and the greater ease of getting Cover from Obscurement (25% vs.50%), I figure it wouldn't be nearly so painful these days.

25% of these huge models now is still exceedingly difficult to manage, and shrouded doesn't do any more than the 5th edition Venomthrope did then if you can't get cover from terrain. On multiple occasions I lost an entire 1850 list in 2-3 shooting phases to DE, IG, and SW. Firepower is much greater in the current meta than it was then. A 5+ cover save with zero access to invulnerable saves and psychic reliance to get FnP is just not going to function.

I've been seeing some more discussion about toe-in Cover around, and a number of solutions that seem kind of awkward. The simplest to me seems to just be adding one word: For Terrain that allows Cover simply for being within it, the Model's Base must be entirely within the Terrain Piece. Not just for GCs, have it apply to everything. It will just have progressively more effect as Models (and their Bases) get bigger, which feels entirely appropriate.

Having played through the vast majority of 5th edition playing tyranids, with rules for cover being damn near impossible to get for MCS, all of the changes like this are such a heavy nerf to bugs that I simply wouldn't bother to bring them to a tournament setting any longer. It's so easy to see these things happening against you and get upset, but when you're the bug player who has to just remove their entire army to shooting by turn 3 because you cannot get cover saves I would venture to say that the bug player is getting the worse of the 2 situations.

I mean are the sicarans worth using now that the battle company is a thing that gets free transports and everything

Why would BCs being around have any effect on the worth of Sicarans?

Toxin sacs are kinda useless here, as poisoned weapons only wound GCs on 6s. And then it has 3+ armor and 5+ FNP.

 

If needing 6s anyway, logic was to use rending, as those 6s will at least deny armor saves. Still, not really a solution.

The boneswords are ap3, but can't wound at except on the charge because of insufficient strength. So, he does need the toxins. And no it doesn't get armor, and if he wounds at all it's on a 6 which would then be ID. So no FnP and d3 more wounds. 

It's not a terrible idea really, but I would generally just advise a Tyranid player to play around the damn thing, try your best to mitigate the damage it can do and kill everything else.