ZeroStride

On 4/26/2021 at 1:42 PM, Ish said:

It's what you auto not to do but you do anyway!

Bravo, sir. Bravo.

This addresses the power of re-rolls, but not the other issues with re-rolls (like it just takes longer to play the game), and it does so at the expense of making the game more complicated. It's a badly implemented, but well-intentioned, change.

Sisters, working on Tau.

Battle Sanctum completed.

Working on the Battle Sanctum. Painted more infantry too, but they look like my other infantry (hooray for consistency?).

On 7/25/2020 at 3:19 PM, Ish said:

Weird that it would work on some models and not the other, given that they’re pretty much the same convex surface... Sometimes I think painting techniques and hobby techniques are as much about supernatural forces as they are actual skill.

Given the accidental times I've painted a really good blend, or eyes, the first time and thought that I may have gotten possessed by a warp entity, I'm inclined to agree.

I've been looking at it like this: Would I pay 2/3 CP to play a stratagem that gave me the buffs I'd get from a different sub-faction/factio,n plus the buffs I get from the additional HQ slots for the entire game?

The answer is frequently: Oh [big bad swear word] yes.

2 hours ago, Brother Glacius said:

retailers will lose out on a lot of sales since they were limited to 45 total copies if they ordered that many to begin with.

You can do the made-to-order box via your FLGS.

Yes the points updates for Forge World will be in that point-update-book-thingy.

This is intended to be a resource for changes in 9th that can be easily referenced. Most of these are YouTube just because it's been things I can listen to while working.

• Full Rules Leak - Google Drive from Lyraeus

Summaries from Other People

• 11 Changes to the Movement Phase - MiniWarGaming YouTube
• 6 Changes to the Shooting Phase - MiniWarGaming YouTube
• Top Rule Changes in 9th from Playtesters - Tabletop Titans YouTube
• Unit Coherency - Auspex Tactics YouTube
• PDFs for Secondary Objectives and Mission Reference - Microsoft Drive via Reddit
• Actions - Goonhammer
• Big Core Changes including Coherency, Engagement Range, Modifiers, the Command Phase - Goonhammer
• Movement including Turrets and Stay Stationary - Goonhammer
• Command Re-roll and its effect on 2d6 rolls - Goonhammer
• Psychic and Shooting changes including 'Look Out, Sir' - Goonhammer
• Combat, Charge, Engagement Range, Flying while Charging - Goonhammer
• Morale, Coherency, New Universal Strategems - Goonhammer
• Terrain - Goonhammer

Faction Specific

• Imperial Guard - Tabletop Titans
• Harlequins - Tabletop Titans
• Craftworlds - Tabletop Titans
• AdMech - Tabletop Titans
• Custodes - Tabletop Titans
• Orks - Tabletop Titans
• Death Guard - Tabletop Titans
• Space Marines - Tabletop Titans
• Tau - Tabletop Titans

Ideally discussion should be kept to the big 9th thread that already exists, but please suggest more resources! I will update this thread with suggestions, and additional links that I come across.

13 minutes ago, Brother Glacius said:

I bought my wife the Sisters army...she is actually putting it together with the intent with learning how to play.

I love this army. Love the models, love the rules, love the style. Hopefully she'll dig it.

The amount of "extra cool bits" is crazy. You can really make some nice variation just with some simple part swaps, and all the power-armor kits work well together.

So, just as a slightly different take on this:

A Battle Sister Squad of 5 is 4 PL. A Retributor Squad is 6 PL. (For reference an Immolator tank is 5 PL, 110pts).

Without any gun upgrades, the Retributor Squad is the exact same thing as the Battle Sister Squad; same exact stat line. If you put multi-melta on them, it's 138 pts, which is totally in line for that 6 PL. The only purpose of taking a Retributor Squad is to put multi-melta on them, because while you can put heavy bolters or heavy flamers, you really don't need a lot of help taking down hoards.

So if I take a Retributor Squad and put melta on them, then I have to explain myself and the point cost differences to each opponent in order to not be a dick?

Another example, an Exorcist is 8 PL, 170pts with the 70pt gun. The 40pt alternative is next to useless. The purpose of the Exorcist is the 70pt gun. Much like the Retributors, that gun is incorporated into the PL cost. But that's "the best gun" so I'm being a dick for taking it?

The problem isn't always PL; but the problem frequently is Marines.

Correct. I got that assortment to fully fill out that limited edition box, and then grabbed some extra 25s because of Arcos kind of "just in case".

Update: Would cheaper help? These are really good bases, and I've ordered bases and other basing bits from the supplier several times as well.

$20? These should go to a good home...

Squad #2 complete

And their ride

I would be very careful about thinking "killing is less than half as important". I don't think the impact of Primary Objective scoring in your next command phase should be ignored. You may not gain any primary objective points for killing a unit, however you can prevent the scoring of primary points by killing a unit on an objective.

In addition, there are not only Secondary Objectives that directly gain you points for killing, but several of the positional secondaries specify things like: no enemy units can be within 6" (for example).

So you may not get casually get points for killing, but your opponent will be able to keep you from scoring if you can't clean them away from objectives.

In addition, I think that the secondaries discourage just castling up in your deployment zone and shooting, because you'll note that many of the secondaries are scored at the end if your turn (as opposed to primaries). So in order to deny these secondaries, you'll need to be out in the field (and of course to score them yourself you'll need to leave your DZ).

26 minutes ago, Dusldorf said:

where do you see this bit? i see where it says selecting warlord traits is part of "mustering your army" when starting a mission, but it still seems entirely up to TOs whether they want to allow toolboxing or not. 

Looking at page 251 and number 4 on that list (and yes, it is still up to the TO for sure).

And since rules are just "how you do the job" here's the jobs to be done...

All primary objectives on the missions are hold 1/2/more, scored in your next command phase

You choose 3 secondaries, you cannot choose more than one from each category, and each mission has a bespoke secondary that you can choose as one of those three...

Quote

[Purge the Enemy]
- 3 VP per character killed
- 2 VP per MONSTER/VEHICLE with 10 or less wounds, 3 VP for 11+ wounds
- 10 VP if one TITANIC is destroyed, 15 VP if 2+ destroyed
- 6 VP if you kill the warlord

[No Mercy, No Respite]
- X/10 VP, where X is the sum number of the models you kill in the game; add 10 instead of 1 if model has 10+W
- 4 VP per round if more enemy models are destroyed than friendly models (destroyed, not kill, so yes perils)
- 0/5/10/15 VP, your 3 highest point cost models survive, 5 for each
- 5/8 VP, kill a unit in the first battle round, add 3 VP if you killed more in the first battle round

[Battlefield Supremacy]
- 2/3 VP at the end of your turn, 3 units wholely within 3 quarters, wholey within 4 and over 6" from the center
- 4 VP at the end of your turn if 2 or more of your units are within enemy DZ (no aircraft)
- 3 VP at the end of your turn if you control more than half the objective markers

[Shadow Operations]
- 3 VP each time an INFANTRY unit completes ACTION, at end of movement phase do ACTION if within 6" of the center, and no enemies within 6" of the center (no aircraft), ends at end of your turn
- 5 VP each time INFANTRY does ACTION, in your next command phase, if wholely within enemy DZ
- 1 VP command phase, 1 VP end of battle for each objective with a banner on it. INFANTRY does ACTION on objective marker, no enemies nearby (excl aircraft)

[Warpcraft]
- 3 VP for each Mental Interogation, Psychic ACTION warp charge 4 18" target character
- 15 VP if you Psyhich ACTION 3x in the battle, Warp charge 3, within (?)" of the center
- 5 VP per PSYKER CHARACTER killed, 3 VP for any other PSYKER, you are not allowed to have Psykers

And the bespoke secondaries

Quote

Combat Patrol
- 5VP if you control the objective marker in your opponent's deployment zone, at end of your turn
- 5VP if you score the 2 objectives not in anyones deployment zone, in command phase (no turn 1)
- 3VP if you have non-aircraft wholely within 6" of your board edge, and opponent board edge. Instead, 5VP if also in their deploy zone.

Incursion
- 4VP Control both A-objectives, 2VP if you control both B-objectives, at the end of your turn
- 3VP Control the 2 objectives not in anyones deployment zone, 5 VP if enemy is within 9" of the center
- (action) 3VP if you control one A, 5 VP if you control both A, take an action, score @ end of turn, no aircraft
- 8/4/2/1 VP depending on objective, socre @ end of turn
- 2/3/5 VP if you control 1/2/3 in your opponent's
- 3/5 VP in their DZ, some board edge requirements, whatever rewards movement

Strike Force
- 15/10/5 VP at the end of the battle if at least 75%, 50%, 25% of your army force is remaining (calculating it is long)
- 3VP at end of your command phases if you control the point in opponent's DZ, and +2 VP for each point you control outside any DZ, max of 7 per turn
- 1/3/6/10 VP in command phase per Action completed
- X VP, at the end of your turn, if you control the center objective, where X is the turn number
- 5/15 VP if 1/2 objective markers were raized
- X VP, where X is the number of points you control, complete action (no aircraft)
- 5VP command phase, more objectives in the centerand more units within 12" of the center

An unmodified 1 always fails, so a 1+ armor save would still require a roll of a 2. But if there was AP-1 on the weapon, it would still require a roll of a 2.

Things that stood out on first read:

• Can't fall-back and Psychic
• Reinforcements can come in on the last turn even and not be destroyed
• You can charge over units, if you can fly, but you have to deal with terrain as usual
• Objective Markers are 40mm, and you measure to the closest part of the marker, not the center
• Command Reroll: only hit, wound, save, advance, charge, psychic, deny the witch, number of attacks
• Insane Bravery is once per BATTLE
• You have to declare your "additional warlord trait", psychic powers, etc on your list, you can't tool-box a different relic or psychic power (unfortunate)
   

Well sure, I wasn't saying they flat-out don't exist. I'm saying it's not an instant "larger squads are bad, and nobody can run them anymore" because that seems to be what is being argued.

Like, when I said, "It's a mental tax for the benefits of getting the most out of CP," I meant exactly that. It's a mental tax. Mental taxes are a thing...that's why I said it's a tax for the benefit.

Similar to the blast weapon change, I said reducing variance is strong, but it's not giving a new ability. There are now just additional tradeoffs.

There were already many reasons to run MSU. It's likely that a good amount of units will still want to be MSU, but units still have jobs to do. 

Units have to survive an entire opponent's turn to score objectives now, if the units aren't tough enough to survive by quality, then they need quantity. The same for character screening; you need 3 models. A squad of 5 taking 3 mortals from a Smite is now no longer a screen for the character. Packing multiple MSU squads around a character you need to protect now reduces the number of units you have who can reach other areas of the table.

There's tradeoffs, and there's jobs to do, and there's ways to mitigate the downside of large squads who have jobs to do (like, grab some apocalypse movement trays even), but this is not, "GW doesn't want anything but MSU." It does force tough choices both at list building time and during play. 

I dunno, the same reasons for taking large units are still the same reasons.

I'm still going to take units of 9 Repentia, why wouldn't I? I want to drop miracle dice on a charge, which is an investment into one squad only; I want to use Tear Them Down for +1 to wound and/or other strats, which is an investment into one squad only; I'm taking support characters to buff them, which means I need to protect those characters until the Repentia do their job and die horribly are redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor.

Likewise there's going to be other things like Green Tide, or the daemons strat that brings a unit back (whatever that is).

The whole unit coherency thing isn't a reason to run MSU, it's just a mental-tax for the benefits of getting the most out of your CP. The blast weapon thing isn't a reason to run MSU, it's the same as if your opponent rolls hot on their 3d3 hits, or d6 hits, etc (but it does reduce variance, which is strong). Hell, larger squads are now more resistant to leadership effects, because let's say you have a squad of 5, 2 get killed, you fail leadership now you have 2 remaining, the remaining 2 flee on a roll of 1 or 2. That is incredibly powerful vs elite units, but a blob of 20 Tzaangor? Eh, if they fail a morale check, about 1/6 remaining will flee, as opposed to the previous potential of: lots.

And no...the smaller table size is also not a reason, because all the missions are laid out using the center of the board as a reference point, so you could play on a 6'x12' table floor, and the deployment zones from the center of the board would still be the same distance apart...and the objectives would still be the same distance from the center of the board.

I've been talking with my fellow Kill Team Illuminati and...boy are we excited for Combat Patrol, and 9th in general.

So Kill Team has had the hold 1/2/more mission type for a while. Tournaments started adopting the kill 1/more, hold 1/more format from ITC because the hold 1/2/more format was incredibly boring, and favored specific armies and lists (as well as exacerbated the injury roll issues in KT). The missions and 9th rules really get me excited though, because instead of going ITC style kill 1/more, hold 1/more, instead we're now delaying scoring of hold by a turn. You can't score any primaries (hold 1/2/more) in the first turn, and instead you score them in your next Command Phase.

Speculatively...this should mean that things don't get all kill-based, while at the same time it doesn't lead to just pure resilient and boring games (the way hold 1/2/more developed in Kill Team). You've got time to disrupt your opponent's plans, while at the same time you are considering resilient units so you can hold, as well as cavalry (for harassment) and heavy fire units (to clean them off of objectives).

All in all, I'm very curious to see how this does. I think it could strike a nice balance between not 'rewarding kills' but also not encouraging turtling units. Combined with a points decrease, and the character targeting update, I am hopeful that it forces tough decisions in what you want to take and what jobs your units need to do.

Supposedly pre-orders will start on the 11th, and then the 25th it will arrive, but also yeah, what Ish said.

I don't think they'll be sitting in a corner and shooting (and winning), just based on the missions we've seen so far.

When it's Hold 1/2/more for primary objectives, and the bonus objectives seem to be special-hold-related (and needing to give up an 'action'). It's difficult to think that any non-moving army will find much success.

Also the Tau getting free overwatch was not that much of a surprise, since they teased that in the Overwatch thing. More surprising is:

Quote

The largest challenge for the T’au Empire in the new edition is the change to the Fly keyword. It no longer offers units the ability to Fall Back and shoot, which means you need to put extra effort into screening enemy charges and preventing your critical shooting units from being engaged in combat.

I'll be back with faith and fire come August. Until then, just painting and plotting...