Random vs fixed selections and list creation

[Guest]

Okay, lots of things in 8th have the option to select or roll randomly. For example, psychic powers or warlord traits. As I understand it, these are part of list creation in a battleforged army, so I'd need to predecide my warlord trait or psychic powers prior to knowing what my opponent is bringing. So selecting traits or powers that only work against certain types of enemies is just a gamble. 

So, as long as I'm gambling, can I opt to roll randomly for warlord traits and psychic powers as part of list creation for a battleforged army (like in ITC)? As in, write on the army list, "rolls randomly for warlord trait."

 

[peter.cosgrove]

Everyone has been choosing them at the GG thing.

[Guest]

30 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Everyone has been choosing them at the GG thing.

Yeah, but can you choose to be random with them?

In rules, I believe they are supposed to be part of list creation (or rather, before deployment). And at GG, everyone I've faced seems shakey on the rules. I'm also shakey on the rules, but I've only had 3 games so far. 

[peter.cosgrove]

I don't think you can force your opponent to randomly choose them, you can of course randomly choose them. At least, I don't see why you couldn't, although I can see why you wouldn't.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

I don't think you can force your opponent to randomly choose them, you can of course randomly choose them. At least, I don't see why you couldn't, although I can see why you wouldn't.

No, not suggesting you can force the opponent to roll randomly (unless their warlord says it does, like with the alpha legion warlord trait). 

Your opponent needs to select their warlord and warlord trait before the game begins (unless something says otherwise). This should be written down in their list creation, which should take place before the players meet in the store for league night. 

I am wondering if they can write down "random roll" for their warlord trait in list creation, and roll it on the spot, or if the player needs to choose a specific one ahead of time. There's no angle here, I'm just curious. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Oh.. I see. No, The warlord trait can be picked anytime before the match begins IAW the game rules. If you look at the ITC stuff it says exactly when you choose your warlord trait/psychic skills. The only way you can obscure your opponent's ability to do this is to hide your army from view off the table and follow the steps for the game waiting until the step where you deploy to bring your army out unit by unit. The deployment check doesn't happen until the matched play begins at the start of the first turn.

It helps if you think of warlord traits/relics/psychic skills as a form of limited sideboard that can be modified based on what army you are facing, knowing that if your opponent is an ass they can keep you from knowing what they have before the game begins.

Check the relic, The Murder Sword, for example. You have to nominate an enemy character, but it's at the beginning of the first turn. Because according to the game you are only going to know your opponent's entire army at that time, not before.

The only time you have stuff fixed is if the LO/TO says your list is fixed throughout the league.

The "checking of your opponent's list" table courtesy is just that, a bit of sportsmanship that, while built into the game/table courtesy, isn't really required by the rules unless it's written into the rules for the tournament. It is interesting to note that if you take out this step, games have a shorter duration because generally briefing your opponent on your army requires it to be laid out and organized.

[Guest]

Well, regarding the CSM, unclear when the Legion trait is picked, as seems to assume that either legion is painted differently, and is therefore obviously distinguishable. Psychic powers are determined "before the battle."

Chaos Artefacts are specifically mentioned to be written on your "Army Roster" though it is not noted when this is done. The CSM Gifts of Chaos Stratagem which allows CP to grant additional Artefact access is specificially handled "Before the Battle."

Page 14 of the free rulebook says that warlord traits are determined "immediately before either player starts to deploy their army." So looks like warlord traits aren't part of the list. It is interesting that they distinguish between "before deployment" and "before the battle". Does not state when the warlord is determined, but there is a spot for the warlord to be written down on the example army roster on page 114 of the Chaos Index, which certainly implies that it is done during list creation. 

Regarding the "check of the opponent's list," the Chaos Index on page 114, starts the Battle-Forged Armies section with, "When picking a Battle-forged army for matched play, you will need to record the details of your army on a piece of paper (your army rooster)." So the presence of an army list is a required component of a battle forged army - I suppose you could argue that the opponent doesn't need to be able to see it, but that logic seems flawed.

 

[peter.cosgrove]

ya, ok. there is a blank roster sheet. Let me check that. Because, since it is posted in the codex that means it has to be prepared in entirety before any game, which includes any pre-game stuff. It would be bad form to prepare the roster after seeing what army your opponent brings and it could be argued that a roster has to be completed before a game.

[peter.cosgrove]

I would say, anything you use a stratagem and command points for would not be included in a pre-prepared roster.

[peter.cosgrove]

Ok, I re-read the original post. No, warlord traits and psychic skills are chosen/decided before each game and therefore aren't included in the roster. Any relics that you gain upon using command points would also not be included in the roster.

[Steel Angel]

Yer just before games starts by ITC missions. Unless you have a mandatory one like say you have Roboute Guilliman he  has to take Ultramarines trait.