GK+MT+DA

[Guest]

Work in progress. Trying to combine Militarum Tempestus (INQ Storm Troopers), Grey Knights (and other INQ), and my Exorcists Space Marines (DA). I may be adding an Imperial Knight and/or C:SM at some point. It's a tough balancing act and I'm very open to suggestions regarding both tactics and model/unit selection. I also have no intention of fielding IG or Sisters, despite the loyalist theme.

 

First, this is continuously overlooked, the present 7th rulebook allows for multiple combined arms detachments from the same or multiple codex. This is not the unbound ruleset, this is in normal games. In example, IG can field 3x combined arms detachments and field the 3x LoWs at 2k. In the case of my planned list, I do intend multiple combined arms, but I have no intention of multiple LoWs. My army will likely be DA Primary combined arms, MT combined arms (possibly with LoW), and allied or combined arms GK (they are a spendy army).

 

Second, targeted list is fluffy and fun. Part of being being fun is not getting stomped every game, but my ego doesn't need to win either. I very much prefer games where the battle is drawn out and the victor isn't clear until the last turn.

 

Basically, the armies function as follows:

 

Militarum Tempestus:

Deep strike 2x melta teams for the cost of a bare space marine squad. Fast transports with solid range and a locator beacon upgrade. Army lacks durability and melee prowess.

 

Very notable is that, as I read it, this army is considered to be IG for Lord of War Access. As the GK (INQ) don't have access to the very fluffy bane blade variants, this solves that troubling issue for me. Basically, I can bring an INQ requisitioned super tank.

 

Grey Knights:

Probably more fluffy than effective in this edition. They did get a major boon in 7th, making them battle brothers to the above armies. Opens up a lot of doors in terms of unit combinations. Army suffers from a lack reliable AT solutions. It is notable that without the inclusion of C:SM, this is the only codex with solid flyer access (Storm Raven).

 

Dark Angels:

Yeah, not a bike army. I do get that the DA basic bikes aren't really as useful as the SM ones, mostly due to the sheer inexpensive nature of the C:SM ones. They've got some nifty units and I very much enjoy this codex, but it does suffer in two areas: Lack of point efficient AA options and lack of grav guns (or rather, lack of quick solutions to MCs).

 

Imperial Knights:

Not sure on the inclusion of one of these guys, but it would be both fluffy and present a melee solution to many enemy types.

 

Codex: Space Marines:

It's downright confusing to include multiple types of space marines in a single army, but I could technically do it if concerned about adding certain things I can't obtain in the other armies. If I did include them, they'd be black templars for fluff reasons (and because they'd match the color theme without being confusing). Very notably, this codex has several things the others lack: more affordable/reliable AA, the grav weapons, and their scouts have locator beacon access.

 

Anyway, I'm looking for list suggestions and such. It's tough to mix so many books and have it make sense, but I'm very much looking forward to being able to field the INQ force I was able to field in 4th (because my INQ stormtroopers used to be in the GK codex and the GK could field allied SM).

[Steel Angel]

Scouts don't get locator becon they get telapoter homer. A bit diff.

[VonVilkee]

Don't MT only have an elite choice? They have their own detachment tho that would allow you to stay battle forged...

[TW_Haines]

I have not tried a Gray Knights contingent added to a SM army, this said I have played against one.

 

The synergy of Gray Knights adding to the psychic pool, really allows powers to go off for your libbies.

 

I like the SM codex good primary detachment, lots of options, I like Iron Hands myself.

 

If your looking at black Templars drop pods work well and legion of the damned make a survivable killer unit.

[Guest]

Scouts don't get locator becon they get telapoter homer. A bit diff.

Hmmm...looks like your right. Though, the DA scouts don't even get those... Still that does affect their value to the army, thanks.

 

Don't MT only have an elite choice? They have their own detachment tho that would allow you to stay battle forged...

Your thinking of that INQ pdf codex. The MT have a commissar or scion command squad for HQ, scion troops (dedicated taurox prime option), and both non-dedicated taurox primes and valks in FA slots. The "codex" totally lacks elites and heavies, but it does meet the basic combined arms requirements. It does not provide a special detachment rules in the hardcopy, though it does include additional rules for two different formations (one for air cav and one for mech).

 

 

I have not tried a Gray Knights contingent added to a SM army, this said I have played against one.

 

The synergy of Gray Knights adding to the psychic pool, really allows powers to go off for your libbies.

 

I like the SM codex good primary detachment, lots of options, I like Iron Hands myself.

 

If your looking at black Templars drop pods work well and legion of the damned make a survivable killer unit.

 

I'm not really wanting to include C:SM, but I would if it meant the list wouldn't get stomped every game. I don't mind a loss, but there's a huge difference in enjoyment between a hard fought loss and a crushing defeat.

 

As to GK and allies, they are very hard to weave together into a cohesive force. GK have very expensive units and strange rules.

 

Tested it recently, list was many proxies, so many of the options were for clarity rather than practicality. I also got a few tests in.

 

2k

 

DA

Azrael (warlord)

DW Terms (5, Plas, chain, 2x TH/SS)

RW Bikes (3+1 attack bike, 2x MG, MM)

Tactical (10, Bolters)

 

MT

Command Squad (5, 2x flamers)

Scions (5, 2x MG)

-taurox Prime (TL AC, Battle Cannon, Augar Array)

Scions (5, 2x MG)

Shadowsword

 

Allied GK

Karamazov

Terminators (5, mix of free weapons, incinerator)

 

Opponent was a tough player with a good attitude. I pick him because I needed to get wiped to see all the weak points to this list all at once. I did explain what the list could do before hand, rather that "surprising" him with fun GK special rules.

 

Mission was normal deployment with kill points for the mission - that was the worst one for me.

 

Let's see, Karamazov and Azrael joined the 10-man tactical squad. This meant that I had a 10-man unit with 18 wounds and all 4++. If they had been within 3" of an objective, they would have had FNP too (curses! no objectives...). Plan was to take advantage of the "friendly" status and karamazov's Orbital Strike Relay.  Opponent was pure TAU. They ignored the superheavy in fear of karamazov, who never got to fire the orbital strike, but survived the first turn of my opponent (No solid targets). I was rolling below average and the unit still absorded a turn of shooting from 2k of tau (closer to 1500 on the table).

 

Lost a good number of DS units to interceptor on riptides. GK mishap-ed and were placed effectively out of the game. Taurox Prime was decent, but I needed more lascannons, not a few autocannon shots. Shadowsword was lackluster - the D weapon changes make them pretty pathetic against T6 MCs (we may have been using them wrong, opponent was rolling saves for EACH of the D3 wounds).

 

It was really good that my opponent has a good attitude, as this was pretty fun only because of that. It was otherwise a crushing defeat. If reading, thanks Tony, it was fun.

 

As for list changes/ideas, I have many.

 

First, that Karamazov+Azrael+Tactical squad was a disaster. 600+ points and it really just absorbed enemy fire. On top of that, it was majority T4, so karamazov lost his impressive high toughness. If I run this in the future, DW Knights would be a pretty solid unit. They can become T5, and have 2+/3++ saves. Their Smite Mode weapons would also be pretty impressive with Karamazov's Rad Grenades. Don't really need Azrael at all for this unit. Lots of other options too.

 

DS heavy was all around a bad idea against his TAU. Those GK really needed a storm raven or land raider, though I'm not too sure either would have helped this game.

 

Those scions need work for sure. The melta teams were wasteful, yeah, but I don't think I'd remove them for future games. That said, I started looking at the other scion special weapons, especially in relation to their command squad orders. Some solid potential there. A command squad with 4x hot-shot volley guns can pump out 8-16 shots at S4 ap3, which is impressive at 24", but with orders, those can be rending shots or twin-linked. Again, probably not very effective in this game, but an interesting option. For this game, they needed a durable transport. I should have either included a super heavy transport, or took a fortification for a building.

 

The super heavy was just wasteful. D ranged weapons are pathetic, if we're fielding them right.

 

Though my biggest issue this game, was just really bad rolling. Success was below statistical average. I had no "hit" rolls all game. Everything scattered and most things scattered a lot.

[Steel Angel]

I would use Karamazov as fire support every turn he has a st10, ap1, lance blast temp. with unlimted range he can use if he doesn't move

 

plus he can shoot at his own troops in HtH. thats just fun

[Guest]

Hmmm...one I keep eyeballing is that the GK FAQ, for some reason, says to use rulebook updates to our GK vindicator, Predator and Whirlwind in addition to the vehicles GK actually have. It would be really awesome if GK had those vehicles, but as far as I know, we don't and it's a typo.

 

 

I would use Karamazov as fire support every turn he has a st10, ap1, lance blast temp. with unlimted range he can use if he doesn't move

 

plus he can shoot at his own troops in HtH. thats just fun

That was the plan, just poorly executed. I wanted to take advantage of being able to use his shooting on allied friendly units, given that GK are no longer allies of convenience to other armies of the imperium.

 

So, some other thoughts:

 

Plasma on the MT troop squads. 5x plas shots between squad leader pistol and 2x plasma on squad members. 115pt squad. Against riptide-types, we can give them orders for prefered enemy, making them overheat much less and higher odds to both hit and wound. Doesn't solve the issue of getting them there without interception, but I think it's a good route in general. I can also use orders to give rending to shooting against vehicles, which should help bridge the gap between melta and plasma. 

 

[Hot Shot] Volley Guns on the MT command Squads. In general, these are pretty awesome weapons with the FAQ clarifying them as not getting hot. With 4x volley guns, looking at a 125pt squad with 8 shots on the move/drop at 24", doubling that number of shots if they are stationary, overwatching, or made relentless via an outside source. So, if ordered twin-linking and stationary, looking at 16 shots, ~14 hits, and 7 wounds against MEQ with no armor saves. Against a tactical squad in the open (say, dropped via a pod last turn), looking at 98pts of damage in a single turn and whittling a 10-man into a 3-man...

 

Hmmm...other approach would be 10-man troops (130pt unit) and use an order to make their stock weapons have the sniper and pinning special rules (means they wound on 4s). Stock weapons are AP3 anyway, but they only have 18" of max range and use the rapid fire rule (though this order prevents more than one shot per weapon...). So 10 shots at 18", 6.3 hits, 3.15 wounds at AP3. Would be pretty impressive against T7+, but melta or plasma is probably more viable the rest of the time. Very notably is that this doesn't make them into heavy weapons, so they can drop and fire these sniper shots at full BS.

 

Lastly, looks like I've 2 or 3 key builds with those taurox primes. First, I can go cheap AT and, with free weapons, I can have a TL autocannon and a blast autocannon (taurox battle cannon) for the stock 80pts. Second, I can go with volume fire and take the gattling gun, hot shot volley, and a heavy stubber. Third, I can go with the cyclone missile launcher (called taurox missile launcher) and either of the secondary weapons (TL AC or Volley gun). First build is tested and decent. It's basically a fast predator with no armor. Second build is 95pts for 17 S4 shots per turn - certainly the AP build. Third is more flexible and most expensive (100pts), I can either go secondary volley to capitalize on the ap3 of the cyclone, or TL AC to capitalize on the high strength of the cyclone.

 

As far as viable upgrades to the primes, looks pretty limited on that end. Augar array is foolish after remembering that DA drop pods can take locator beacons for much less cost. Camo netting is spendy and supports a camping approach to the unit, though there is some value if combined with a DA darkshroud (5+ cover in the open, 2+ if obscured). Tau would still laugh at it, but only if they had markers to spare. Smoke launchers seem really weak in this edition, as they took a major hit by not having any effect in the enemy psychic phase (or rather, witchfire powers effectively ignore smoke launchers). The Relic Plating is nifty and fluffy, so I may include that, but I don't really expect it to add much. 5pt heavy stubber is nice, but I'd be snap firing it every turn if I didn't remain stationary and it's range really doesn't mix well with my prime weapons. Dozerblades and seachlights remain as useful as ever. The HK missile is appealing, but still probably not worth the points - it does present the option for 3x krak missiles in a single turn if going the missile route, with BS4, might be viable.

 

I could also go the valk route, but at a price hike from the old ones, the hellstrike missile is still ordnance, and my general dislike of the model last edition, I don't really like this route.

 

On the DA front, I will note that the practicality of taking term or bike troops and a really expensive special character is gone with the change to make everything scoring. I may still field my speeder sammy, just for AV14 spam lists, but those characters can't justify their costs anymore. Azrael was in the above one for the FNP and Inv buffs, but even that was probably an inferior route as I should have probably just added a psyker. To be fair, this isn't a huge loss for me, as I still haven't built a model for any DA special character other than speeder sammy.

[Guest]

Something I overlooked in the FAQ was that the GK lost all of their unit specific psychic powers. I understood that the libbies lost the codex specifc ones, but I hadn't fully understood that things like warp quake are lost from the strike squads. It's not a horrible problem, but it is quite a game changer. Also, all my psychic characters generate powers, not just the libby.

 

Another interesting one is Justicar Thawn, which before was just a lvl 2 psyker that could detach after death - his upgrade for the unit means that the unit is +1 warp charge (+2 total) before he dies and +2 (+3 total) after he becomes his own unit (squad is 1, him separate means you have another unit with lvl 2).

[Guest]

Okay, here's an unusual list that I may have to start bringing:

 

2k

 

Grey Knights

HQ Karamazov

Troops Strike Squad (5)

Troops Strike Squad (5)

 

Dark Angels (Exorcists)

HQ Librarian (lvl 1, TDA, Lion's Roar, Force Axe)

Elites DW Knights (5)

Troops Scouts (10, BP+CCW, Vet+Fist)

Troops Tactical (5, Flakk ML)

Troops Tactical (5, Flakk ML)

Fast RW Darkshroud (AC)

 

Space Marines (Black Templars)

HQ Chaplain

Elites Centurion Assault Squad (3, Hurricane Launchers)

Troops Scout Squad (5, BP+CCW)

-LS Storm (HB)

Troops Scout Squad (5, BP+CCW)

-LS Storm (HB)

 

Militarium Tempestus

HQ Scion Command Squad (5, 4x MG)

Troops Scions (5, 2x PG)

Troops Scions (5, 2x PG)

 

Total is 2k on the dot and it's a very tight list. I've got 4 CADs working in concert.

 

LS storms "join" the RW dark shroud to form a light assault wave. BT Chaplain joins Exorcist Scouts for a more direct attack line. Karamazov joins BT Assault Centuions. GK and Scions deep strike into combat. Flakk Exorcist tactical squads find a good vantage point and harrass from afar. Librarian joins DW knights for turn 1 DS action.

 

List has no flyers, but it looks reasonable on AA. I've technically got 3x levels of psykers between the GK and my Libby, plus the BT units add adamantium will to their joined units.

 

I have no idea which HQ is the warlord. It would require much testing to determine which is most viable in that role.

 

And beyond the 3x speeders, I've no vehicles.

 

Despite 4x CADs, I'm not seeing anything overly broken in my list. I even think it's pretty fluffy.

 

List is very light on long range weapons.

 

Suggestions or comments?

[Guest]

Let's see, progression to the above:

 

BT

 

Bought and assembled the BT Assault Centurions, mostly painted. Just need to get those shoulder pads done.

 

Found a good bit for my BT Chappy's Backpack. Need to find the rest of a stock PA chappy.

 

Need to locate the scouts, repaint from exorcists to templars and re-base.

 

Need to locate the LS storms.

 

All models paid for, just unsure of locations.

 

GK

 

Pretty sure I've got 10x strike squad members with basic swords. If not, conversions ahoy!

 

Karamazov is one I used to own, but don't currently. I've had a plan in place for some time using an RT lord of macragge for karamazov and walker legs from an epic warlord titan. I just need to get the other bits together.

 

DA (Exorcists)

 

Pretty sure all built, assembled and painted. May need to re-paint a few to match my current Exorcists paint scheme. Darkshroud is unfinished.

 

Militarium Tempestus

 

Codex finally arrived from GW. I've got the old Storm troopers, but not any melta troopers. The assault centurions did include a bunch of extra melta bits, so it's a bit of converting only, but that's the plan. I will need to strip my old paint on these and repaint.

[pretre]

I love Karamazov's model but have never been able to find a good way to use him.

[Guest]

I love Karamazov's model but have never been able to find a good way to use him.

I know what you mean. None of the GK units work well with him. I've been thinking about him with battle brothers, given the BRB change on GK to BBs.

 

In the above list, he's got an assault centurion body guard. The Centurions match armor and toughness very nicely. On top of that, I've got TL flamers and hurricane bolters to discourage enemy charges. Offensively, Karamazov has frag, psyk-out and rad grenades, which all work exceptionally well with those siege drills. Karamazov also has both that orbital strike and a BS5 TL multi-melta. BT adamantium will is nice too, but I'm not expecting miracles.

 

I am a bit concerned with their lack of invulnerable save, but aside from psychic assistance, no easy solutions come to mind, at least, not without sacrificing other elements of the army. Plan is just to camp/advance them in cover and try to absorb the wounds.

 

Offensively, I think Karamazov should work well with this list. It's got a few DS elements, some fast units, and some reasonably durable melee units, all of which would "gladly" take an orbital strike for the greater good.

 

I also think the list is reasonably equipped to cope with super heavies.

 

I am unclear if this list can cope with biker armies, but that would greatly depend on their list, as mine has quite a variety of threats within it.

[Guest]

Ugg, still no games in with this "dream" list. Just one too many projects and a messy hobby space.