2++ Thousand Sons (and More!)

[WestRider]

I've been working on my Daemons lately, and so I was brushing up on some of the Rules, and I noticed that the Grimoire of True Names can be used on any Unit that has at least one Model with the Daemon special Rule, but works on all Invul Saves in the Unit, regardless of whether or not they're provided by the Daemon Rule.

 

So I was thinking, take some Thousand Sons, Join a Sorcerer with the Crimson Slaughter Relic that makes him a Daemon, and slap the Grimoire on there for some real fun against low AP weapons.

 

Also works on Tzentch Oblits, Mutilators, and Warp Talons (or provides a 3++ with other Marks. Cursed Earth will stack on those, too, since they're all Daemons, tho, so you can still get to 2++). I might actually have to run Warp Talons just for the potential lulz here.

[Guest]

That skyshield landing pad also has good potential with the grimore.

 

It is also notable that although cursed earth and the grimore do modify any invulnerable save obtained by the daemon, banishment (and similar abilities) also modify any invulnerable save obtained by the daemon.

[WestRider]

I don't think Banishment would affect the Thousand Sons, but it would affect the others. The Thousand Sons aren't Daemons, but the Grimoire only needs one Daemon Model in the Unit to be able to buff all Invul Saves, Daemonic or otherwise. It's more flexible than Cursed Earth, but with the risk of backfiring.

[Guest]

So I was thinking, take some Thousand Sons, Join a Sorcerer with the Crimson Slaughter Relic that makes him a Daemon, and slap the Grimoire on there for some real fun against low AP weapons.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but the relic in crimson slaughter that makes your IC a daemon, also makes him only able to join units of possessed.

[Guest]

I don't think Banishment would affect the Thousand Sons, but it would affect the others. The Thousand Sons aren't Daemons, but the Grimoire only needs one Daemon Model in the Unit to be able to buff all Invul Saves, Daemonic or otherwise. It's more flexible than Cursed Earth, but with the risk of backfiring.

Unclear. As I read it, if the target unit qualifies as a "unit with the daemon rule" then all models in the target unit are -1 to their invulnerable save.

 

Cursed earth, on the other hand, only boosts models with the daemon rule.

[Guest]

On a side note, I did run a blob of 20 thousand sons in a game of 6th ed. They last, but they really suck in all areas. Their the only PA marine to lack frag and krak grenades, they can't overwatch, they have 1 swing each, and their shooting is horribly limited in application.

 

That blob of 20 lasted most of the game, much of which was spent locked in melee (against thunderwolves, I think). They couldn't get out of assault and they just wouldn't die. Sounds like a good unit, but they are 500pts or so of models. It was a waste. Giving them a 2++ would not fix their issues.

[Guest]

The other downer to cursed earth is that it affects friend or foe, so in the rare opportunity that you face enemies with the daemon rule, your cursed earth tactic may prove a liability.

[WestRider]

Argh. I forgot that about that Relic. Still could Join a DK Herald to a Unit of Thousand Sons for the same effect, tho it'd be a massive Fluff Abomination. Could also use Tzeentchian Possessed. Tzeentch DaemonKin will probably open up more opportunities for it.

 

I'll need to look at the specific wording on Banishment in the morning. Cursed Earth specifies that it only modifies Invuls on Models with the Daemon Rule.

[WestRider]

OK, Banishment is worded really weirdly. I'm fairly certain that it was written without considering the possibility of a Unit that had some Daemon Models and some without the Rule. For instance, it specifies that it's cumulative with other Modifiers to a Daemon's Invul, but says nothing about how to resolve it with regard to a non-Daemon's Invul.

[Guest]

OK, Banishment is worded really weirdly. I'm fairly certain that it was written without considering the possibility of a Unit that had some Daemon Models and some without the Rule. For instance, it specifies that it's cumulative with other Modifiers to a Daemon's Invul, but says nothing about how to resolve it with regard to a non-Daemon's Invul.

Agree. I think, as written, it would apply to non-daemon models, provided the unit is considered having the daemon rule. I know, the daemon rule is a model thing, so it's very much in the air on if it would count or not. I think I'd just ask my opponent ahead of time, what they want to do. I'm pretty sure their are some bonuses for a CSM/daemon player in the "unit" counting as having the daemon rule.

 

So an added one, is the "Incorruptible" warlord trait for Ordo Malleus Inquisitors.

 

All units with the Daemon special rule within 12" of the Warlord suffer a -1 penalty to their invulnerable save (to a minimum of 6 +). This is cumulative with any other modifiers.

Again, units. I am quoting the "updated" codex inquisition.

 

I will note that their aren't any units that are mixed daemon and non-daemon models. You have to mix ICs into other units in order to get a unit with both daemon and non-daemon models.