orkdork Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 Hey all, Yet another question that I can probably figure out on my own in time, but I'll ask anyway because I wish I were playing :) I have a bunch of figures for a Nephilim grow list, and I'm wondering if I'm at all on the right track in terms of the list and how many extra models I'll want. My intention is that this list is for Turf War and Reckoning, while my Zor crew takes Squatter's Rights and Reconnoiter. So this isn't meant to be a marker crew. I currently have these models: Lilith Barbaros Nekima Cherub 1 Mature Nephilim 2 Young Nephilim 3 Terror Tots 1 Black Blood Shaman I'm looking at a 50 ss list like: Lilith, Beckon, Blade, Wicked (4ss) Cherub (3ss) Barbaros, Gladius, Talons (12ss) Nekima, Mother, Growth (16ss) Shaman (7ss) 2 Tots (8ss) Leaves me with an extra tot, two extra young, and an extra mature Will I need more dudes on the board to start? Will I need more dudes to summon? Thanks! Orkdork 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 24, 2015 Report Share Posted August 24, 2015 I don't get to play nearly enough either... That should be enough dudes, I think it'd be rare if you need more than that on the table at any given time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcalla Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Grow lists are a bit misleading. Its not about creating new models but upgrading the ones you have. Some of the things I have learned from playing a grow centric lilith list is if possible start with a young, and 2-3 tots. I generally don't run nekima as she is is an awesome model and usually the center of all attention even beyond lilith in many cases to the detriment of your list she's waaaay spendy but worh the stones in large games. I usually stick the grow upgrade onto barbaros along with his sword. The shaman will also spread your "Grow" influence bubbles out (though situationally). Also remember that you can toss victims around with barbaros and if they run into tots they get to "pounce". I tend to run hybrid grow lists now. I'll sometimes use just the Black Blood Shaman, or I'll run nekima (adjusting the starting neph's accordinly) along with other neverborn (usually non nephalim) models. In many games I've found if you get caught up in growing/raising troops, you'll end up running out of time to finish your scheme/strats. So enjoy exploring the grow lists but remember to keep an eye on your goals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 25, 2015 Report Share Posted August 25, 2015 Nekima's not a bad choice IMO, she's definitely worth the stones, and can potentially bring out a couple of new tots throughout the game with her upgrade. My tots usually die early on unless they're off running schemes on their own so having a few big targets can help draw fire away from the tots until they have time to grow. Focusing on Grow can definitely bite you in the strategy and schemes department though, make sure you're not ignoring your objectives just to make it happen, try to put your models in a good position to benefit from grow while accomplishing your objectives and take advantage of it when you can. Also don't forget summoned models gain Slow and cannot take interact actions on the turn they are summoned, so you have to be careful with late game grows/matures that you aren't giving up a potential Interact action by growing/maturing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcalla Posted August 26, 2015 Report Share Posted August 26, 2015 I wasn't po pooing Nekima. She's an awesome model (both model and stats). But for most every opponent you face, their first priority will be to take out nekima and that can be a very big blow at 14 stones. Especially if your "grow" shenanigans are centered around her. Thats why I usually run her with the BBS and then drop the grow upgrade for others. She'll get the same attention that a master will get, but she's more squishy than a master if that makes sense. All that being said, I'd say she and Bad Ju Ju are the tops in currently released henchmen. They are both closest to masters without actually being masters. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted August 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 27, 2015 Thanks for the feedback, guys! Sounds like my list might want a few more tots, but is otherwise a good starting point. Interesting to hear you call out JuJu as a top Neverborn henchman. For just 8ss, he does seem pretty great. He is fragile, but between landslide and his 2/5/7 curve, with good flips, he wrecks face. I have no frame of reference (my own comparison point is barbaros, and I suck with him so far). His upgrade seems super dependent on the situation to me. If my opponent doesn't have to fight him early, it's basically a big waste. That said, I always take it :) I do think I'm going to love Barbaros once I figure him out. Auto-push on each attack is beastly. I can pretty easily start 12" from something, charge it (nimble), then push it back toward me 8". Grow list or not, I gotta think it's very powerful. Also, what do you guys think about obsidian talons? The ability to Red Joker on a minus damage flip for either Lilith or Nekima seems incredible. But for Barbaros (2/3/4) and the tots (usually going just for the last damage point, i'd guess), it seems lackluster. Thanks for the discussion! I'm hoping to get in 4 games this weekend, so at least one will be my first go with the grow! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Being able to cheat on a - flip is pretty great, but Masks are precious. Certainly worth taking for 1ss, and if you can cheat in a moderate or severe a couple of times a game (or a red joker) on a negative flip it will more than pay for itself. It could also be worth using a soulstone to add the suit for Lilith or Nekima to cheat a - flip against a tough target. That said I don't take it every game, its not an auto-include; Lilith usually gets + flips to damage to help negate - flips, and using Focus can also help get the big hits in when you need them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcalla Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 I never seem to have the points/slot for talons, so I don't have alot of experience with it. I did take it recently (@ I can't believe its not walpalurgis) and it was pretty useful. but that was a 90-100 stone game so I had lots of misc points to spend. That being said its often in a game where I'd wished I could cheat a -flip so perhaps I should start taking that upgrade more often lol. As for Ju Ju. With eternal he is basically unkillable, And a leader (hench/master) that can come back from death is huge. Add flury for 3 of those 2/5/7 attacks with the trigger for paralyze. And to top it off throw Fears given form on him and models that begin an activation have to pass a def duel or take damage, and if they want to move/target ju ju they have to take a terror test (assuming living) Opponents start out at a -flip for damage against him and when he activates he regens 2 wounds. One other nasty little surprise give him On Dreaming Wings and surprise your opponents with flight. That's what makes him top 1-2 in henchmen and I was counting all factions not just within the neverborn. At small games (henchmen led) he is the top over nekima even. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Hadn't thought of wings of darkness on juju, I often have it on lilith... But it'd be nice to free up her upgrade slot for something else... You do need to take a few swamp fiends to make best use of juju coming back (3-4 min?) but fortunately silurids and waldgeists are both excellent in any list and with lilith in particular. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 Oh yeah, wings of darkness is Leader only, so Juju could only use it in small games when he's the leader. :( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted August 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 All but one of my games was vs resurrectionists, so I completely forget about JuJu's awesome terrify :p Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcalla Posted August 28, 2015 Report Share Posted August 28, 2015 All but one of my games was vs resurrectionists, so I completely forget about JuJu's awesome terrify :p Ahh. Yeah when looking at him next to basic rezzers he does loose a bit with his terror and the hard to wound doesn't seem as rare as it is throughout the rest of the factions. Mach's right, you do need the swampfiends to capitalize on his bury shenanigans. A spawn mother and some gups can also serve really well in that capacity. Cheap "disposable's" that you can unload ju ju out of is nasty. The folks on the receiving end of a Killjoy, or Betty bomb will attest to that. Also remember that it doesn't have to be a "friendly" Swampfiend for Ju Ju to use Mud Calling. @Mach: I'd forgotton to mention that wings was a "hench led" trick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted August 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2015 Holy crap... Am I reading Lilith right that she doesn't need los to swap dudes? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcalla Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Being the "Master of Malifaux" she doesn't need line of sight to declare charge actions or casting actions. And it makes her unaffected by sever and hazardous terrain. Its Good to be a native. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yep. She's awesome! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yeah man, what a difference! I had been 0-3 with Lilith, trying to understand the hype. Her tricks just seemed too unreliable. Since then, I've learned two rules things I'd had wrong: 1. I didn't realize you could hold cards between rounds. 2. No LOS requirement on her casts. Being able to build up a hand of masks is wicked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Yep. Personally I love taking primordial magic with her for an additional Rush of Magic card each turn. Add to that the Wings of Darkness upgrade that lets her draw an extra card when spending a soulstone to draw cards, and she's drawing 11 cards before discarding back down to 6 at the start of the turn. Also don't forget masters and henchmen can use a soulstone to add a suit to any duel, so if you really need that Tangled shadows to go off and you don't have a mask just burn a soulstone and cheat in a high card of any suit if need be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 I got my first grow-list game in on a turf war game vs Nicodem. I won on a tangled shadows that pulled Nico into Lilith and Nekima, so pretty much the rest of the game was unimportant. I did manage to grow a tot into a young using my shaman after the tot had completed its scheme marker run. It's hard to gauge how important the upgrades are. 9ss is a lot, and the only upgrade that seems a no-brainer is Beckon Malifaux. The growth mechanic actually seems less about "get more ss on the board", since it doesn't reliably seem like it will yield more than it costs, and more about "have scheme runners early, fighters late". In a lot of ways, I could see dropping the shaman, barbaros and most of the upgrades for more tots. I'm going to keep playing it as-is, since I have so little experience with it, but I'm guessing I am a ways off from the final list. Yep. Personally I love taking primordial magic with her for an additional Rush of Magic card each turn. Add to that the Wings of Darkness upgrade that lets her draw an extra card when spending a soulstone to draw cards, and she's drawing 11 cards before discarding back down to 6 at the start of the turn.Also don't forget masters and henchmen can use a soulstone to add a suit to any duel, so if you really need that Tangled shadows to go off and you don't have a mask just burn a soulstone and cheat in a high card of any suit if need be. The worm is #1 on my to-buy list. Awesome totem, and goes with Zoraida wonderfully as well, since voodoo is a summon. As far as the ss for suits, we've had that one right since the start, as it is essential to Joel's summoners :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted August 31, 2015 Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Summoning a voodoo doll would sacrifice any existing totems unfortunately. Grow is also about turning wounded models into bigger, badder, uninjured models. Gives them a bit more longevity. Definitely not to be considered a bunch of free models like Nicodem's and other masters' summoning 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted August 31, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2015 Summoning a voodoo doll would sacrifice any existing totems unfortunately. Right! I had it in my head as friendly dolls get sacrificed, not totems. Makes sense. Grow is also about turning wounded models into bigger, badder, uninjured models. Gives them a bit more longevity. Definitely not to be considered a bunch of free models like Nicodem's and other masters' summoning Yeah, I can definitely see that being the case for the young -> mature step especially. For the tots, while this surely holds true as well, tots seem less likely to still be standing if they got hit :) But the fact that I can have a tot place a marker, sprint into grow range, grow into a young, and still activate as a young means that I just gained a free marker while also replacing a 4ss marker runner with a 6ss fighter. My presumption here is that once you have markers down, runners are likely to be less important than fighters. I certainly have found my Silurid often run out of work to do come turns 4+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Veskit Posted September 4, 2015 Report Share Posted September 4, 2015 Good scheme runners don't run out of work. They can be used to go chase down enemy scheme markers and remove them, or go engage models to slow them down from removing your markers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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