Guest Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Okay, so Joss kills the Desolation Engine. Desolation's Lost Focus says that it does not drop scrap or corpse tokens. Joss' Creative Salvage says that models killed drop an additional scrap. Which takes precedence? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Joss says "Models killed by this model drop a Scrap Marker in addition to any other Markers dropped." Joss's ability doesn't require that the model killed drops any markers at all, so I'd say it doesn't matter that the DE doesn't drop one when killed. Joss get's his additional scrap. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 10, 2015 Report Share Posted October 10, 2015 Joss says "Models killed by this model drop a Scrap Marker in addition to any other Markers dropped." Joss's ability doesn't require that the model killed drops any markers at all, so I'd say it doesn't matter that the DE doesn't drop one when killed. Joss get's his additional scrap. That's not really true. The quote is correct, but it says specifically that the model killed by this model drops a scrap marker. So while a model that normally doesn't drop scrap, would also drop scrap, it's rather iffy as DE specifically doesn't drop scrap markers for being killed. Joss' rule is specific that it makes the killed model drops scrap. The DE wording is also clear cut in that it doesn't drop markers, rather than a marker. While I don't agree with your reasoning, I'm still iffy on which rule takes precedence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orkdork Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Maybe break the "tie" by ordering? So joss is acting, thus his ability is resolved first.... which doesn't make it any simpler :) Does resolving joss's ability mean that the de will drop an extra scrap marker when dropping markers? Or does it mean it drops a scrap marker at the time of resolution of the ability? I would assume resolving the de's ability would mean that any markers to be dropped will not be dropped. I would guess that joss's ability resolving means that you drop an extra marker when it comes time to drop markers, and then since the de's ability resolves second, it cancels out joss's, but it isn't really clear. Is there a specific step-by -step for this kind of resolution other than the general timing section of the rule book? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 General timing only really applies when things are simultaneous. DE to me reads as more of an "always active" ability. If Pax is right, then DE wouldn't drop any. If I'm right, DE's ability only cancel's the corpse/scrap that would normally be dropped by a killed model, but doesn't cancel the scrap dropped by Joss's ability. Its definitely grey and I haven't seen any official ruling on it. Honestly this is gonna be an exceedingly rare occurrence, so not really a big deal either way to me. If it came up in a game I'd be happy to play it either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 I think this one may come up again... DE's ability comes in because when DE dies, rather than "dying" it splits apart into other models (2 abominations). Ashes & Dust has a similar set of rules which clearly state it doesn't drop markers (any markers) upon death (Splits apart into Dust Storm and Ashen Core upon death or being sacrificed). Leveticus, Ashes & Dust, Desolation Engine, Abominations, and Rusty Alice, all have access to the "Desolate Warping" trigger, which upon killing the target will summon an abomination and leave no corpse or scrap markers. In other words, Leveticus' default crew all have abilities with a similar wording. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mach_5 Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Desolate Warping would still summon abominations even against the desolation engine. The only ambiguity comes in with Joss, and how often is Joss played against a crew that takes Desolation Engine, and how often in those games is Joss the one that kills the desolation engine? I've asked a few others and everyone else seems to think that Joss drops no scrap from desolation engine, so I'll give you that one. Same result if Joss kills A&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted October 12, 2015 Report Share Posted October 12, 2015 Desolate Warping would still summon abominations even against the desolation engine. The only ambiguity comes in with Joss, and how often is Joss played against a crew that takes Desolation Engine, and how often in those games is Joss the one that kills the desolation engine? I've asked a few others and everyone else seems to think that Joss drops no scrap from desolation engine, so I'll give you that one. Same result if Joss kills A&D. Thanks ;) On a side note, Joss' ability isn't unique to him. That "Creative Salvage" is on a few models within the Arcanist faction, and probably others. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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