"Within"

[Guest]

Okay, does within X" of a model, include the model itself?

 

This especially matters with regards to buildings, as garrisoned units use the building's model, rather than their own, for this sort of thing. If you have 2 units garrisioned inside a building and of one has a within X" ability, does it apply to both units, no units, or just the other unit?

[Malakithe]

I have no idea what your talking about lol

[Guest]

I have no idea what your talking about lol

Sorry, lacking explanation. Okay, I'll use seraphon, just for you...

 

You have an Engine of the Gods and a Kroxigor unit 2" apart. Both units are wounded. The Engine of the Gods rolls a 3 for his Cosmic Engine. Seraphon units within 3" heal d3 wounds. Kroxigor heals for sure, does the Engine of the gods also heal (is it within 3" of itself?)?

 

And the related point. The same two units, but this time both are garisoned inside a Watch Tower Warscoll (as they are a unit and a hero). As per garrision rules, range and visibility is measured from the building, instead of the actual models. So now when our wounded Engine of the Gods rolls 3 for his Cosmic Engine, both units are consider the same building for measuring the within 3" healing ability. Is the building within 3" of itself?

 

Some games are very clear cut that models are never within range of themselves, while others consider the models to always be within range of themselves. It's an important distinction, as it determines quite a bit regarding in-game abilities.

[Threejacks]

From what I can tell from batreps and such,players are playing like in 40k were a model is always within range of itself and distances from the abilities source are measured from the model to the other models.

 

So garrisoned units with an ability would measure from the building to the other models to see if an effect is in range.Also "Units within range" would only need one model to be able to be touched in order to gain the ability.Note that there are some abilities,,like terrain cover for example,that stipulate the unit needs to be "Fully within" in order to gain the ability.

[Guest]

Okay, that sounds reasonable.

[Malakithe]

Good example. I just reread it and it says 'any SERAPHON unit' so for me that includes it cuz of the keyword

[Norrad]

So garrisoned units with an ability would measure from the building to the other models to see if an effect is in range.

Their in lies the key to the original question. Ranges for attacks, abilities and effects would be measured from the building or section of a larger structure that is bring garrisoned and not from the whole structure. Allowing the whole structure gives too much range to the abilities and changes their affect on the game.

[Guest]

Their in lies the key to the original question. Ranges for attacks, abilities and effects would be measured from the building or section of a larger structure that is bring garrisoned and not from the whole structure. Allowing the whole structure gives too much range to the abilities and changes their affect on the game.

I'm actually sure that is the intention with the GW rules. Some buildings even include bonuses to the range of AoE effects for garrisoned models (Skull keep increase Totem ranges by double, for example).

 

Unlike 40k, a garrisoned unit is only afford a basic cover effect. Making the unit effectively bigger may make it more potent in range and read of effect, but is also means that the unit is considerably more vulnerable to attacks which require LoS, as the entire building is considered the target unit. It is notable that mortal wounds cut through cover, so most buildings don't provide much in the way of protection without additional special rules. Warmachines and wizards are especially able to devastate a building's garrison.

 

The other key distinction is that heroes can still be targeted separately from other garrisoned units when shooting at the building's garrison. There's no independent character rules in AoS so by making your hero more visible, you are making them considerably more vulnerable. Often times, it will more viable to place a hero or fragile unit BEHIND the building, rather than inside.

 

So, in example, you place your Dwarven Thane with battle standard in a Watch tower building with another dwarven unit. The Thane plants his standard, since he's not moving anyway, and you have this rather annoying 16" bubble around the building that causes -2 to casting rolls for enemy wizards. Now, that said, the Thane only has 5 wounds. Even with a 3+ save (4+ base and cover), he's very vulnerable to shooting, since that watch tower makes him unable to hide.

 

EDIT: for the skull keep, here: http://www.games-workshop.com/resources/PDF/AoS_Warscrolls/scenery/aos-warscroll-skullkeep-en.pdf

In particular, the "Dominant" ability.

[Guest]

What I'm unclear on, is if the example Thane applies said bonuses to himself, and by extension, any other model occupying his building, as they are the same model for measuring when garrisoned together. Matters quite a bit, as it determines if my other unit of dwarves have to exit the building to gain the auto-pass battleshock, or if they can remain inside.

[Guest]

Okay, here's another one:

 

Skaven Packmaster's

 

Packmaster

Moulder units from your
army that are within 6" of a Packmaster in
the battleshock phase double their Bravery.

Now the packmaster is a Moulder unit with a Bravery of 5. Does he have Bravery 10 in the battleshock phase due to his own Packmaster ability?

 

If it matters, he's a 3 wound solo model with a 6+ save, so passing battleshock is the least of his worries.

[Malakithe]

Easiest translation to me is keywords. Does he have the keywords? If yes, then he buffs himself. If no, then it's just others

[Norrad]

Considering that the pack master is s single model Hero, why would he need to double his own bravery in the battle shock phase? He will never take Battleshick tests.

[Malakithe]

Well there's that too lol

[Guest]

Considering that the pack master is s single model Hero, why would he need to double his own bravery in the battle shock phase? He will never take Battleshick tests.

I'm pretty sure there are ways to inflict a model with battleshock tests without killing models in the unit. Certainly less common.

 

Anyway, and I'm asking here, do you think the "within" term includes the model itself?

[Norrad]

Battleshock tests are only taken for units which lose one or more models in a turn. Units cannot include models that use different Warscrolls. So my point is that the pack masters ability only doubles a clan molder units bravery in the Battkeshock phase.

It seems that when they want the using model to gain said benefit from an ability they tend to include that model in the description. For example, the Seraphon Engine of Gods has a heal within x inches. The ability specifically states that the Engine along with any other Seraphon units within range are healed.

[Guest]

Battleshock tests are only taken for units which lose one or more models in a turn. Units cannot include models that use different Warscrolls. So my point is that the pack masters ability only doubles a clan molder units bravery in the Battkeshock phase.

It seems that when they want the using model to gain said benefit from an ability they tend to include that model in the description. For example, the Seraphon Engine of Gods has a heal within x inches. The ability specifically states that the Engine along with any other Seraphon units within range are healed.

Just seems like you are avoiding the question.

 

Since you seem unaware of the garrison rules, here's the one from the Watchtower, in the Scenery Warscrolls PDF

 

Garrisons:

A unit can garrison a

Watchtower if all of the models in the

unit are within 6" of it at the start of their

movement phase, or if they could be set

up within 6" of the Watchtower when

deploying for the battle. Remove the

garrisoning unit from the battlefield and

place it to one side.

A unit garrisoning a building can attack

and be attacked as normal, except that the

range and visibility for the models in the

building is measured from the building

model. The garrison counts as being in

cover if it is attacked.

One Hero and one other unit can garrison

a Watchtower. Models cannot enter a

building garrisoned by the enemy.

A garrisoning unit can exit a building as

its move in a future movement phase. To

do so, set it up so that all models from the

unit are within 6" of the building and more

than 3" from any enemy units.

Okay, Engine of Gods, for example, is garrisoned inside the watch tower. By being garrisoned, his unit set to one side and we use the building in place of the model for range and visibility.

 

The watchtower can hold a HERO and one other unit. Or rather, it holds 2 units. Our Engine of the Gods is our first unit for the example.

 

Now my question is: if the building is considered to be the Engine of the Gods for range and visibility, then is the second unit within the building considered to be in range of the Engine of the Gods?

 

The question is important because both units occupy the same space, which is the building, for the purposes of range and visibility. The is very similar to Totem and the Packmaster situations.

 

As for battleshock, the Malefic Gate, as just one example, can cause Battleshock tests for units that have not taken causalities. Ability is called "screaming gargoyles".

[Threejacks]

"Now my question is: if the building is considered to be the Engine of the Gods for range and visibility, then is the second unit within the building considered to be in range of the Engine of the Gods?"

 

Yup:)

 

 

Don't see any reason why 2 Warscrolls/Units, both garrisoning the same building aren't considered to be at range 0" to each other.

[Malakithe]

Makes sense to me that all units inside the building are in range...thou how you fit a raging dinosaur inside a tower is beyond my comprehension

[Guest]

thou how you fit a raging dinosaur inside a tower is beyond my comprehension

With you there.

 

But from a rules mechanic stance, it's so much easier than the 40k building system. So beautifully simple. I know many people aren't hot on the simplification of WHFB, but AoS is looking like an awesome beer & pretzels kinda game.

[Threejacks]

Sooo...Lets say I have 40 Bloodreavers and their Bloodsecrator hold up in my Skullkeep.They get assaulted and its now their turn to attack back..

 

How many get to attack?

 

Weapon ranges are 1"

 

Should note that with the totem buff and their own bonus from being in range of a totem I think they all make 3 attacks..

[Guest]

Sooo...Lets say I have 40 Bloodreavers and their Bloodsecrator hold up in my Skullkeep.They get assaulted and its now their turn to attack back..

 

How many get to attack?

 

Weapon ranges are 1"

 

Should note that with the totem buff and their own bonus from being in range of a totem I think they all make 3 attacks..

And that is a perfect application to the question I've been asking regarding "within."

 

My understanding is that they'd all measure from the building itself. You'd still have to pick unit activations for the combat phase, so that Bloodsecrator and the Bloodreavers would remain 2 units.

 

Now, that said, I can just single out your Bloodsecrator with a ranged unit (or 2), kill him, and then face unbuffed Bloodreavers. Might take a turn or two of whittling at range to get your bloodreavers to a manageable size, but I can leave them in there and wait. And presto, we have siege warfare in AoS <giant grin>.

[Threejacks]

Actually for that matter,you could single out the Bloodsecrator in melee and just throw as many of your attacks at him as you like.Do this with the first charging unit then face the unbuffed crazies,hehe.

[Guest]

Actually for that matter,you could single out the Bloodsecrator in melee and just throw as many of your attacks at him as you like.Do this with the first charging unit then face the unbuffed crazies,hehe.

Totally true.

 

Which is why the buildings are defensively iffy for hero models. That Bloodsecrator is likely better off hiding behind the tower in your example.

 

That said, skull keep double's his banner range because he is a totem. So, his buff to Khorne extends 36" from that tower, when planted, So he's a solid backfield unit in that tower, so long as you can keep the enemy away.

[Malakithe]

My list is kinda siege like. Kinda like a siege assault vanguard list. Tanky, slow and steady push forward. Sounds fun