Itc Nerf to Fulmination Discipline: •Electrodisplacement:

[Talonwinter]

First off I like the ITC and think the are good for the hobby.I am asking myself the question why the nerf?? Why the fear and over reaction?

 

Has is power been a big issue at a tournament yet?? has it destroyed the meta some where???

 

I haven't heard of a single tournament where the top3 list have even used it. Has anyone??

 

Here is the interim ruling:

 

Fulmination Discipline:

•Electrodisplacement: We recommend altering this psychic power to treat the casting Psyker's unit as Deep Striking when moved and therefore being unable to assault in the turn it uses Electrodisplacement. Further, the casting Psyker may not target a unit locked in combat to swap places with.

 

This power has be nerfd with a D-Weapon. The power is now unrecognizable to what it was. Nothing of the benefits . It doesn't even have the spirt of the power. Nothing that made you go wow that's amazing instead you read it and go wow that terrible.

 

For me its right up their with Biomancy #6 Hemorrhage. The one power which no one wants.

 

The other powers they suggested some modifications to. Kept the spirt of the powers. Like these.

 

Geokinesis Discipline:

 

•Phase Form: we recommend altering this psychic power to be Warp Charge 2, and to allow the targeted unit to either ignore Line of Site or to Ignore Cover, but not both simultaneously.

 

 

•Shifting Worldscape: we recommend banning this power for tournament play or altering it to only allow the controlling player to move a terrain piece in a straight line along the table. It may not move over intervening models and at no point may it move within 4" of another piece of terrain or enemy unit. It otherwise obeys all other rules of the power.

 

ITC said use the powers test them out. How can we test them in a tournament setting when they have told everyone to nerf it??

 

They tested it. They even offered a 100 dollar challenge saying it was unbeatable broken. To there embarrassment they lost too the very first challenge twice to the same guy.

 

They even said of that's a anomaly after the first one. After the second one the where like oh that is a anomaly as well. Guess what those happen a lot in this came.

 

ITC pulls a lot of weight with TO as they help make things easier for them. This suggestion is being implemented already.

 

Guess what?? No one takes Fulmination Discipline as the other powers are only ok to bad. There is no other power in the discipline that is a must have.

 

My question "Why the destruction of the power and isn't their a better way to nerf it??

 

I can think of a easy half dozen ways to do so.

 

Heck I can think of one easy fix that would let the power be played as written.

 

Your guys thoughts?

[AbusePuppy]

I really don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be; it still does the same thing (swapping the positions of two units), it just prevents you from assaulting when you use it. In my mind it's a pretty simple way to fix the issue with the power (i.e. easy first-turn assaults) that doesn't cause any other huge problems.

 

You say that you can think of half a dozen other ways to fix the power- so what are they? If you're critiquing their solution, it behooves you to offer concrete alternatives rather than simply calling them names.

 

And no, the power has not made major appearances at any tournaments that I'm aware of- however, most players don't have the appropriate models to build an army around it. I know for a fact that many very good players (some of the top players in the USA, in fact) are planning to make use of it, but like any other book you won't see widespread dominance of it until enough people have built models and armies to take advantage of the power.

 

Comparing it to Shifting Worldscape, it is easier to cast (WC2 instead of WC3) meaning you don't necessarily even need a Conclave to succeed it, it is a lot more flexible in getting close to the enemy (since it can put you within 1" of them pretty easily, whereas Worldscape will typically get you no closer than 3" and often further than that), and its utility uses are comparable in many ways.

 

The lack of other strong powers in the discipline certainly can limit it, but that doesn't actually make the power not broken in and of itself- and it's not fun for games to come down to "did you roll the one automatic charge power that nothing can stop okay you win I guess no need to play the game out." I actually think the nerf to Phase Form is much harsher, although I don't have much sympathy for that power to start with so I don't really care.

[Talonwinter]

I really don't think it's as bad as you're making it out to be; it still does the same thing (swapping the positions of two units), it just prevents you from assaulting when you use it. In my mind it's a pretty simple way to fix the issue with the power (i.e. easy first-turn assaults) that doesn't cause any other huge problems.

 

You say that you can think of half a dozen other ways to fix the power- so what are they? If you're critiquing their solution, it behooves you to offer concrete alternatives rather than simply calling them names.

 

And no, the power has not made major appearances at any tournaments that I'm aware of- however, most players don't have the appropriate models to build an army around it. I know for a fact that many very good players (some of the top players in the USA, in fact) are planning to make use of it, but like any other book you won't see widespread dominance of it until enough people have built models and armies to take advantage of the power.

 

Comparing it to Shifting Worldscape, it is easier to cast (WC2 instead of WC3) meaning you don't necessarily even need a Conclave to succeed it, it is a lot more flexible in getting close to the enemy (since it can put you within 1" of them pretty easily, whereas Worldscape will typically get you no closer than 3" and often further than that), and its utility uses are comparable in many ways.

 

The lack of other strong powers in the discipline certainly can limit it, but that doesn't actually make the power not broken in and of itself- and it's not fun for games to come down to "did you roll the one automatic charge power that nothing can stop okay you win I guess no need to play the game out." I actually think the nerf to Phase Form is much harsher, although I don't have much sympathy for that power to start with so I don't really care.

Well lets see here some fix's. You can use a combination of these if want. They would let the power still work like it was intended. If there was still a issue then more could be done. There has been very little time since these powers cam out that they can't have to much feed back on them yet.

 

You can't combo it with the terrain shifting power. You can have one or the other.

 

One make it warp charge 3 or 4.

 

Give it -4 inches to charge and makes you WS/BS 1 if you swap. The -4 goes to -6 if you go into cover. It can't be negated in anyway.

 

Since the Conclave is what makes it the most powerful make it so this power doesn't get the bonus from the Conclave.

 

Turn one assault are still a thing with the Wulfen Murder pack and deathpack combos you can get a surprising distance.

Also turn one shooting can be just as damaging if not more so. Personally getting hit with 80 shots for turn turns is no fun either.

Their changes doesn't adjust how it works but changes completely how it work to the point it is not the same power.

 

It went from helping assault armies, which need help. To being a power for a shooting army.

 

 

Also the ability to get a unit out of combat that you didn't want assaulted. Gone. How was that over powered in anyway.

 

How did the fix the power. They did not. They Changed its concept.

 

Most of the powers in this discipline are combat focused. 3++, extra strength and attacks, even another movement power. The new format doesn't work with the rest of the powers at all.

 

Honestly would you take this power with the changes?

 

I have a very limited budget for this game and most of the models to make these list.

 

I agree the power needs to be toned down some. But not to this extent.

[AbusePuppy]

You can't combo it with the terrain shifting power. You can have one or the other.

 

One make it warp charge 3 or 4.

 

Neither of these is actually a fix- as you've pointed out elsewhere, the Conclave makes it trivial to cast WC3 and WC4 powers, which is what most players are expected to use for Electrodisplacement and Shifting Worldscape. While not having to keep it in a Conclave is an advantage, removing that ability does not actually fix the problem- the problem is first-turn assaults with consistency, remember. Prohibting its "dual use" with Worldscape I'm not even sure why you think would be a potential solution at all; the relationship between those two powers is already an either/or sort of scenario, since very few lists actually need both.

 

 

Give it -4 inches to charge and makes you WS/BS 1 if you swap. The -4 goes to -6 if you go into cover. It can't be negated in anyway.

 

Since the Conclave is what makes it the most powerful make it so this power doesn't get the bonus from the Conclave.

 

The first one here is just a completely arbitrary restriction that has nothing to do with the original power- you may as well say something like "models affected by this power are reduced to a maximum of a 5+ save, regardless of all other modifiers." If you're complaining about negating the original point of the spell, this is easily far worse.

 

Denying it the Conclave bonus has a similar issue with arbitraryness- why doesn't it get the Conclave bonus? Because, that's why. And even that change won't be enough to save it unless it's a WC3+ power, since succeeding with a WC2 power is pretty trivial.

 

 

Turn one assault are still a thing with the Wulfen Murder pack and deathpack combos you can get a surprising distance.

Also turn one shooting can be just as damaging if not more so. Personally getting hit with 80 shots for turn turns is no fun either.

Their changes doesn't adjust how it works but changes completely how it work to the point it is not the same power.

 

Wulfen+Murderpack can get a T1 assault, sure, but good deployment can mitigate that and it relies on keeping a unit outside of the deathstar alive in the face of enemy interference- Displacement and Worldscape do not.

 

Shooting can certainly do damage, but the game is balanced with the assumption that shooting happens from turn 1; that is not true for assaults.

[Xavier319]

I agree completely with AP at this point (THAT alone should get your attention). ;) he's 100% right. The ITC nerf keeps the spirit of the power, allows you to use it for everything BUT turn 1 assaults. i think that getting a unit out of assault isnt that bad, as long as the unit that's replacing it is not placed in assulat, but 1" away. but in the end, preventing turn 1 assaults is the entire point of the nerf. Anything that allows for reliable, nearly unstoppable Turn 1 assaults is bad for the game, period.

 

Shifting worldscape is... well... bonkers and should not exist, for a variety of reasons.

[galahad911]

Where is this stuff posted at???

[Talonwinter]

How is making a assault focused power in to a non-assault focused power not arbitrariness?

 

 

 

This power is not a auto win if you have it.

 

 

 

Wouldn't the easy fix be to say No turn one assaults then?? From turn 2 the power should work as written.. That is the simplest fix.

 

 

 

The spirit of the power allows you to do 2 things. 1st swap and assault or 2nd swap a unit that is in combat with another.

 

 

 

The power can't do either of these now. Honestly how is that keeping the spirit of it.

 

 

 

As for turn 1 charges the happen a lot and are greeting more reliable. Even with this power Hammer and anvil you can deploy so you can’t get a turn one charge pretty easily. Dawn of war deployment you can’t get away from some army lists now without this power.

 

 

 

Gate allows you to use it in combat to get out of it. This power does not, as they changed it to say you can't pick a unit in combat. So you can't swap in or out of combat.

 

 

 

Also I have never seen someone Gate a Assault deathstar ever.

 

 

 

It seems to me the Conclave is the main issue.

 Maybe we should look at it instead.

[Talonwinter]

The ITC 7th edition FAQ it is in blue waiting the new vote.

 

Hopefully on the vote the have a midway point instead of break it or leave it.

 

Think about if you opponent charges a unit turn one and you have this power in a assault unit. And he doesn't kill it he deserves to be assulted. Just saying.

 

Nerf the swap and charge.. Leave the swapping in to combat alone. Seams to a fair middle ground.

[galahad911]

So, wait, Talon you like the idea of a Thundercav Deathstar catapulting around a table and assaulting things the whole game? That sounds like a fun thing to play against to you?

[pretre]

So, wait, Talon you like the idea of a Thundercav Deathstar catapulting around a table and assaulting things the whole game? That sounds like a fun thing to play against to you?

I like the idea. :)

 

Being able to hide them completely on turn 1 so they don't get shot and still being able to assault would be wonderful. The problem with all the other turn 1 charges is not getting to go first. This power takes a lot of the sting away from going second. :)

[galahad911]

And then you scatter your drop pods all over the board and have threat range to basically everywhere late game. I'm sure it's fun as hell for the guy who gets to punch everything to death, but a [big bad swear word] show to the guy getting punched.

[pretre]

And then you scatter your drop pods all over the board and have threat range to basically everywhere late game. I'm sure it's fun as hell for the guy who gets to punch everything to death, but a [big bad swear word] show to the guy getting punched.

Yep. I was being mostly tongue in cheek. It would help me enormously for them to leave it alone, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea.

[galahad911]

Yep. I was being mostly tongue in cheek. It would help me enormously for them to leave it alone, but that doesn't mean it is a good idea.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm usually just running Flyrants and this stuff doesn't concern me too much, but I see what it does to other players and it doesn't look good.

[Talonwinter]

I can get 50% of the time a 26 inch to 42 charge range now with out the power with the murder/death pack combo. Turn one charges by thunder wolves are a thing people will have to live with to tell the truth.

 

A for the Wolfstar it is charging turn two anyways most of the time. Having thunderwolves hitting you turn one is not the deal breaker. it is all of the Psychic powers it has that makes it so hated.

Simple to counter really. Most Wolfstars don't have a lot of shooting You can take a Assassin to shut down the wolf star real easy.

 

With a complete wolfstar you don't have a lot of room for units in drop pods that are really survivable. Mini stars you do but they are also a lot easier to kill.

 

 

Also the wolf star can' assault the whole army a opponent has normally.

Most armies now cluster in one area. Or are super mobile like Eldar jet bikes that can almost cross the whole board as well. How many games have the stolen with their OS last turn because you can't catch them.

 

Seams fair that their is a way to catch them now. After turn one I all's fair in love and war.

 

Honestly how is getting shot by 60 to 120 Str 6 shots two turns any more fun or survivable.

[pretre]

The difference is that you can't hide your TWC with Murder/DP combo and people can deploy away from it.

[Xavier319]

Talon. what this power does, is guarantee your turn one charge. and the anti-psyker assassin doesn't really help anymore, as he cant hitch a ride in a drop pod. The point poeple are making is, this is no fun, not balanced, and is just outright bad for the game. assault is extremely powerful when you dont have to worry about being shot.

[Talonwinter]

The difference is that you can't hide your TWC with Murder/DP combo and people can deploy away from it.

Only on hammer and anvil can they be completely out of range. Dawn of War no so much. it extremely hard to put a 1850 in small corner area. the other deployment type if you hide in the back you just booked yourself in to a corner literally.

for the

Intel they use the new GW FAQ VSG. it protect the units very well. Even then I want to go first for sure.

 

 

With that power you can deploy away from it. The power is not a auto win people make seam to be. As with every list there are hard counters to it.

 

But if people use the suggested Interim ruling you will not see this discipline anyways. Which is sad.

[Talonwinter]

Talon. what this power does, is guarantee your turn one charge. and the anti-psyker assassin doesn't really help anymore, as he cant hitch a ride in a drop pod. The point poeple are making is, this is no fun, not balanced, and is just outright bad for the game. assault is extremely powerful when you dont have to worry about being shot.

 

The Conclave is not fun, not balanced and is just outright bad for the game as well. But it is allowed. What's the difference

really.

 

You are not Guaranteed a first turn assault with this power. Far from it.

 

 

 

The anti-psyker assassin stops blessing from being cast on a unit. You can't swap with a unit that is within 12 inches of it. Also if they do get to charge they have no buffs and stuff dies a lot easier then if it walked across the table.

 

Heck please come across the table so I can take away the buffs makes killing that unit a lot simpler really.

 

Even with perfect placement drop pods scatter out of range for a charge.

 

Also there are formation out their that have so much free stuff that they can wall them selves in pretty darn good and never hurt there offensive power.

 

I play Tyranids mainly and getting shot at for 2 to 3 turns before making it in to combat is not really fun either. It is the reason you don't see ground based Tyranids. Shooting is insane with riptide wing and Bike and warp spider spam. Grav spam issue as well. The amount of shots make make even moving 12 a turn not a good option for assault units.

 

 

Sorry, I have little to no sympathy for shooting armies complaining they can't handle combat with this new power.

 

Most of those shooting armies it comes down to who goes first between them.