Rues Question

[Talonwinter]

This came up at a tournament and the to and me where both unsure how to answer it. He ruled it did but was unsure.

 

Can psychic scream hit FMC when they are swooping?

 

Anyone know for sure?

 

Fliers have a hard to hit rule but FMC do not. And the BRB say thins that snap-fire can auto hit

page 23ish I believe.

 

Just needing to make sure.

[Guest]

This came up at a tournament and the to and me where both unsure how to answer it. He ruled it did but was unsure.

 

Can psychic scream hit FMC when they are swooping?

 

Anyone know for sure?

 

Fliers have a hard to hit rule but FMC do not. And the BRB say thins that snap-fire can auto hit

page 23ish I believe.

 

Just needing to make sure.

Psychic Scream (Tyranid psychic power) is a nova, and therefore can specifically hit flyers automatically. Page 27 very clearly covers this.

 

If you instead mean Psychic Shriek, from the BRB, I believe this is covered in the new GW FAQ, and it actually doesn't roll to hit at all (not an auto hit, it simply doesn't require the hit-step at all), unless the witchfire power has a weapon profile. So it should be able to target flyers without regard to them flying or not.

[Guest]

Fliers have a hard to hit rule but FMC do not. And the BRB say thins that snap-fire can auto hit

page 23ish I believe..

FMCs do have the Hard to hit rule. Page 69.

 

Normally, weapons that do not roll to hit, cannot hit targets that require snap shots.

[AbusePuppy]

As of the new FAQ, this is correct. Psychic Shriek does not roll to hit, and weapons which do not roll to hit cannot be fired as Snap Shots and cannot hit Swooping FMCs.

 

(The case is a little less clear with regards to a Swooping FMC using such an attack on another FMC, however.)

[Talonwinter]

As of the new FAQ, this is correct. Psychic Shriek does not roll to hit, and weapons which do not roll to hit cannot be fired as Snap Shots and cannot hit Swooping FMCs.

 

(The case is a little less clear with regards to a Swooping FMC using such an attack on another FMC, however.)

Wouldn't a FMC just use skyfire. then it wouldn't matter.

[Guest]

As of the new FAQ, this is correct. Psychic Shriek does not roll to hit, and weapons which do not roll to hit cannot be fired as Snap Shots and cannot hit Swooping FMCs.

 

(The case is a little less clear with regards to a Swooping FMC using such an attack on another FMC, however.)

Not official yet, but the Tyranid Draft FAQ clarifies that witchfire powers without a weapon profile, are not treated as weapons. And if they are not weapons, they aren't subject to hard to hit. For tyranids, this mostly affects the Maleceptor, which the Draft FAQ is addressing. 

 

The flip side to this is that witchfire without a weapon profile cannot fire out of transports via fire points. Doesn't affect the Maleceptor, but it is annoying for many psykers.

[AbusePuppy]

Witchfires without weapon profiles are not treated as weapons, but they are still shooting attacks (by definition.) That means they will be subject to the rules that govern shooting attacks, including the Hard to Hit rule.

 

And it is not true that witchfires without profiles cannot fire out of transports. You can Shriek from the top hatch of your Rhino all day long, but you can't Cleansing Flame even though it has a weapon profile. Having a weapon profile is not what determines a power's type or how it functions.

[Guest]

Witchfires without weapon profiles are not treated as weapons, but they are still shooting attacks (by definition.) That means they will be subject to the rules that govern shooting attacks, including the Hard to Hit rule.

From the FAQ regarding witchfire:

Q: Are witchfire psychic powers counted as Assault 1 if they have no profile (the Neurothrope’s Spirit Leech power, for example)?

 

A:No. If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead (in the case of Spirit Leech, you simply pick the target unit which must then take a Leadership test on 3D6).

 

Q: Does the To Hit roll for certain witchfire powers that affect ‘targeted models’ care what the result of the To Hit roll is?

 

A: If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers. If a witchfire power has a profile, and is manifested successfully, it rolls to hit in the same manner as a shooting attack.

Can't find the transport one right now, but regarding shooting at flyers, it is pretty clear that if power lacks a profile, you ignore the normal shooting aspect and just follow the directions as written.

 

In the case of psychic shriek, you just select a target in range, roll the 3d6 and compare leadership. They are completely unaffected by hard to hit.

[AbusePuppy]

All witchfires are shooting attacks, even if they do not roll to hit or otherwise follow the normal shooting process. This is part of their own definition and it is one of the reasons you cannot use them when locked in combat, for example.

 

Shooting attacks which do not roll to hit cannot be made as snap shots.

 

The Hard to Hit rule makes all shooting attacks against the target snap shots unless they have the Skyfire rule.

 

QED a witchfire which does not roll to hit cannot be used against a Hard to Hit target unless you have the Skyfire rule.

[Guest]

All witchfires are shooting attacks, even if they do not roll to hit or otherwise follow the normal shooting process. This is part of their own definition and it is one of the reasons you cannot use them when locked in combat, for example.

And that SAME paragraph says that all witchfire powers which are not blast or template require a roll to hit. The FAQ clearly says that this is not case for witchfire without a weapon profile. So please, explain how we follow the FAQ and that same paragraph you are taking this sentance from? I think it's clear that the FAQ means to clarify that witchfire without a weapon profile are not shooting attacks. 

 

Or is your point that BRB superceeds the FAQ?

[AbusePuppy]

Why are they not shooting attacks? Where in the FAQ update does it say or imply that?

[Guest]

Why are they not shooting attacks? Where in the FAQ update does it say or imply that?

Like everything GW, it's super confusing. Within those two quotes, explain how you would apply the hard to hit rule to psychic shriek?

 

As I read it, psychic shriek does not apply to a target "hit". All it requires is a target. Shooting phase step 1, "choose a target." That's it. It doesn't qualify as an auto hit, because the whole to-hit step doesn't apply here. It's like a Searchlight (another shooting phase option which only requires a target). 

[AbusePuppy]

It's not a matter of whether it "hits automatically" or whether it "just works." It is a shooting attack. It does not roll to hit. It cannot be legally declared against a target which it would have to make a snap shot against- including a Zooming/Swooping target, any target while the caster is Pinned or Jinking, etc.

[Guest]

It's not a matter of whether it "hits automatically" or whether it "just works." It is a shooting attack. It does not roll to hit. It cannot be legally declared against a target which it would have to make a snap shot against- including a Zooming/Swooping target, any target while the caster is Pinned or Jinking, etc.

You are wrong, sir. You can legally declare anything to be your target, that's a 7th ed thing. Page 30. Step 1, Nominate Unit to Shoot. Step 2, Choose a Target. Step 3, Choose a Weapon. Step 4, Roll to Hit. And so forth.

 

Yes, Snap Fire affects the ability to hit things. Snap fire does not affect the ability to target things. This is because the targetting step is handled on a per unit basis, not per weapon. My Vindicator with searchlight can target your zooming flyers, but their Demolisher cannot hit your zooming flyers. The Searchlight will still trigger on the Target of my shooting, not based only on what was actually hit. 

[AbusePuppy]

A Searchlight isn't a shooting attack, so your example is irrelevant.

 

And as far as the Shooting sequence goes, Psychic Shriek is not a weapon and thus the Shooting sequence cannot be applied to it.

 

Again, shooting attacks that do not roll to hit CANNOT be made as snap shots. Unless you can find something to contradict that (our you would like to argue that Shriek isn't a shooting attack), you really have no ground to argue from.

[Guest]

Again, shooting attacks that do not roll to hit CANNOT be made as snap shots. Unless you can find something to contradict that (our you would like to argue that Shriek isn't a shooting attack), you really have no ground to argue from.

I've already quoted it, you just aren't reading:

 

 

Q: Does the To Hit roll for certain witchfire powers that affect ‘targeted models’ care what the result of the To Hit roll is?

 

A: If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers. If a witchfire power has a profile, and is manifested successfully, it rolls to hit in the same manner as a shooting attack

 

And since this is hard, I'll break down the response:

 

 

If a witchfire power has a profile, and is manifested successfully, it rolls to hit in the same manner as a shooting attack

 

Okay, so pretty clear, witchfire powers with weapon profiles are shooting attacks. They resolve rolls to hit in the same manner as a shooting attack. The rule you keep citing regarding hard to hit is explicitly part of this roll to hit step.

 

If a witchfire power does not have a profile, follow the instructions written for that power instead – this includes most focussed witchfire powers.

 

Psychic Shriek does not have a weapon profile. Specifically, I must follow the written instructions instead (as in, instead treating it as a shooting attack).

[WestRider]

Pax, you're conflating "shooting attack" and "weapon". The two are not the same. Nothing in that FAQ changes the very first sentence of the Witchfire Rules: "Witchfire powers are shooting attacks." It goes on to say that "...many have profiles similar to ranged weapons." Emphasis mine, but it still makes it clear that even if it doesn't have a profile like a ranged weapon, it's still a shooting attack. You follow the specific instructions on the ones that don't have a profile instead of treating them like a weapon, but they're still all shooting attacks.