Formations, Detachments and Factions

[pretre]

I don't post on blogs too much, so I'll respond to it here:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/02/fall-of-cadia-initial-impressions-on.html

 

"Celestine (note the distinction from Codex: Adepta Sororitas where she is Saint Celestine and does not have the same stats and rules, nor cost), Inquisitor Grayfax and Belisarius Cawl all have a special Exemption found in Fall of Cadia, The exemption is tricky so I thought I would go over this because people FACING it will need to know as surely as those using it.

The exemption says that these three characters can be included as an HQ choice in a Detachment that has the same Faction as they do even though they are listed separately in Fall of Cadia.  This is kind of a tricky one on its own, because what it's saying is that their first must BE a choice.  Formations in particular often specify they require a "Space Marine Captain" for example or they might require some other specific HQ.  In those cases now or in the future, these three Independent characters could not take their place.   On the other hand in the Vestal Formation, which actually allows HQ choices, Celestine from Fall of Cadia could be incorporated as one, even though St. Celestine from Codex:Adepta Sororitas could not because she does not have that exemption and is not listed in Codex: Imperial Agents."

 

And the wording from Fall of Cadia:

 

"DATASHEETS AND UNIQUE RULES
This book includes three new character datasheets, one
each for the Cult Mechanicus, Adepta Sororitas and
Inquisition Factions – Belisarius Cawl (pg 120), Celestine
(pg 122) and Inquisitor Greyfax (pg 124) respectively. It is
important to note that any of these powerful characters can
be included as an HQ choice in a Detachment belonging
to their Faction as normal, but each of them can also be
included as an HQ choice in any Combined Arms or Allied
Detachment comprised of an Armies of the Imperium
Faction (such as Astra Militarum or Space Marines),
regardless of the individual character’s actual Faction."

 

 

He is mixing up detachments and formations. The FoC rules don't say that they can be taken in formations of other Armies of the Imperium. But, because they have factions, they can be taken in Formations of their appropriate faction where appropriate.

 

The second part that it incorrect is that Vestal (or any Detachment) is restricted to the models in that book. Vestal allows any models with the faction 'Adepta Sororitas'. That means you can take models from both C:IA and C:AS in that detachment. This is the same as being able to take models in a CAD from C:SM and C: Angels of Death.

 

Next:

 

"hat being said, clearly her abilities are meant to benefit the Adepta Sororitas units (with the odd exception of the It Will Not Die power for a round which can be used on Lords of War, of which there are none in the Adepta Sororitas and so that was a nod to the Fall of Cadi detachment itself). "

 

Amusingly enough, there aren't any lords of war in FoC that this would work on since Celestine's power only works on non-vehicles and all the LOW in there are vehicles.

[Lord Hanaur]

I don't post on blogs too much, so I'll respond to it here:

http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2017/02/fall-of-cadia-initial-impressions-on.html

 

"Celestine (note the distinction from Codex: Adepta Sororitas where she is Saint Celestine and does not have the same stats and rules, nor cost), Inquisitor Grayfax and Belisarius Cawl all have a special Exemption found in Fall of Cadia, The exemption is tricky so I thought I would go over this because people FACING it will need to know as surely as those using it.

 

The exemption says that these three characters can be included as an HQ choice in a Detachment that has the same Faction as they do even though they are listed separately in Fall of Cadia.  This is kind of a tricky one on its own, because what it's saying is that their first must BE a choice.  Formations in particular often specify they require a "Space Marine Captain" for example or they might require some other specific HQ.  In those cases now or in the future, these three Independent characters could not take their place.   On the other hand in the Vestal Formation, which actually allows HQ choices, Celestine from Fall of Cadia could be incorporated as one, even though St. Celestine from Codex:Adepta Sororitas could not because she does not have that exemption and is not listed in Codex: Imperial Agents."

 

And the wording from Fall of Cadia:

 

"DATASHEETS AND UNIQUE RULES

This book includes three new character datasheets, one

each for the Cult Mechanicus, Adepta Sororitas and

Inquisition Factions – Belisarius Cawl (pg 120), Celestine

(pg 122) and Inquisitor Greyfax (pg 124) respectively. It is

important to note that any of these powerful characters can

be included as an HQ choice in a Detachment belonging

to their Faction as normal, but each of them can also be

included as an HQ choice in any Combined Arms or Allied

Detachment comprised of an Armies of the Imperium

Faction (such as Astra Militarum or Space Marines),

regardless of the individual character’s actual Faction."

 

 

He is mixing up detachments and formations. The FoC rules don't say that they can be taken in formations of other Armies of the Imperium. But, because they have factions, they can be taken in Formations of their appropriate faction where appropriate.

 

The second part that it incorrect is that Vestal (or any Detachment) is restricted to the models in that book. Vestal allows any models with the faction 'Adepta Sororitas'. That means you can take models from both C:IA and C:AS in that detachment. This is the same as being able to take models in a CAD from C:SM and C: Angels of Death.

 

Next:

 

"hat being said, clearly her abilities are meant to benefit the Adepta Sororitas units (with the odd exception of the It Will Not Die power for a round which can be used on Lords of War, of which there are none in the Adepta Sororitas and so that was a nod to the Fall of Cadi detachment itself). "

 

Amusingly enough, there aren't any lords of war in FoC that this would work on since Celestine's power only works on non-vehicles and all the LOW in there are vehicles.

It would work on Drago, for example?

[Lord Hanaur]

And youre wrong.  A Formation IS a Detachment, per the main rulebook.

[Lord Hanaur]

Also you are wrong.  the Vestal Formation requires that thew models HAVE that faction.  That is a far cry from saying that anything that IS Adepta Sororitas may be incluided.  That is an important distinction that you are missing. 

 

To be clear, while you are REQUIRED to be Adepta Sororitas Faction to even BE in the Vestal Formation, that is not permission to include things that are not on the Datasheets for the Vestal Formation.  

[pretre]

It would work on Drago, for example?

Yes. Or any of the other infantry LOW.

[pretre]

Also you are wrong.  the Vestal Formation requires that thew models HAVE that faction.  That is a far cry from saying that anything that IS Adepta Sororitas may be incluided.  That is an important distinction that you are missing. 

 

To be clear, while you are REQUIRED to be Adepta Sororitas Faction to even BE in the Vestal Formation, that is not permission to include things that are not on the Datasheets for the Vestal Formation.  

What faction do the models in Codex: Adepta Sororitas have?

 

Where on the Vestal Formation does it say that they have to be from C:IA?

 

Here is the only restriction in C:IA to the Vestal Formation "RESTRICTIONS: All units from this Detachment must have the Adepta Sororitas Faction."

[Guest]

A Formation IS a Detachment, per the main rulebook.

Formations are a type of detachment, but not all detachments are formations. 

 

Not sure if you were meaning it, but the quote comes off as "Formation = Detachment" which isn't quite true, as I explained above. Squares and rectangles...

[pretre]

And youre wrong. A Formation IS a Detachment, per the main rulebook.

I missed this but Pax took care of it.

 

Formations and detachments aren't exactly the same word or rules concept.

[AbusePuppy]

Yeah, a Vestal Task Force can include any models with the appropriate faction- whether they are drawn from Codex: Imperial Agents, Codex: Adeptus Sororitas, a Forge World datasheet, or some other supplement. It's the same reason that you can take models from any of those sources in a Combined Arms detachment, for example.

[Lord Hanaur]

No. Lol. The Vestal formation cannot.

[pretre]

Please quote from a rulebook why.

[winterman]

No. Lol. The Vestal formation cannot.

So can a detachment from Angels of Death contain datasheets from Codex: Space Marines?  Or can it only contain the few datasheets that are actually in Angels of Death?  Why or why not?

[Lord Hanaur]

I don't own Angels of Death.  =(

[winterman]

I don't own Angels of Death.  =(

Ok Traitors Hate detachments taking datasheets from Codex: Chaos Space Marines?  Same idea.  Assume you have that for your Night Lords?

 

Isn't necessary though, point is lots of detachments can take in units that are not actually in the book they are in.  And the only way you know they are available is via faction.

[scottshoemaker]

Like it or not, AoS handles this better with keywords.

 

I'm not a fan of 40k list building.

[AbusePuppy]

I'm pretty sure Hanaur is the only one here confused by the idea that a Adeptus Sororitas detachment is allowed to take Adeptus Sororitas units. There's lots of things to gripe about in 40K list building, but faction definitions isn't one of them.

[Guest]

Like it or not, AoS handles this better with keywords.

 

I'm not a fan of 40k list building.

I do like several things AoS does, keywords being one of them.

 

That said, I recall having many issues with the AoS list creation system (which is basically, just bring whatever). They now have expansions, like the General's handbook, which expands on this, but that isn't part of the original AoS. Not sure why it took so long just to get a stable list creation option from GW. Often feels like AoS is GW's method of consumer testing for whatever their finished product is going to be. So while I'm not a fan of 40k list building, I don't really think AoS is a good alternate.