Tempestus Questions

[Wellington99]

Rather than end up making a different topic every time I have a question MT related, I figured I'd make this, which I do in fact have a couple questions right now.

 

1) At the moment, I'm working towards the Ground Assault Formation which consists of 4x Taurox Primes, 3x Scion Squads, 1x Command Squad, and 1x Commissar.All I need now are two more Taurox Primes and I'll have the formation and the ability to do around 1000 comfortably depending on how I configure the other two Tauroxes. Right now I have one set up with the standard configuration (battlecannon and autocannons) and one with the missile upgrade (and autocannons). My thought is to do one with with the gatling gun and volleyguns and the other as another battlecannon/autocannon Taurox.

 

However, I also am thinking of making my third squad kitted out with volleyguns. Right now I have my command squad with plasma (do them up so there's four plasma and the Tempestor Prime), a Melta squad, and a volleygun squad. In making the second volleygun squad, I'm thinking of putting them in a gatling gun Taurox Prime, and with two volleygun squads, ideally would need two gatling gun Taurox Primes.

 

Should I go with the more general purpose Taurox Prime with Battlecannon or go with the gatling gun Taurox Prime that I think will better suit the volleygun squad?

 

2) For 45 points (or 25 if I'm running the missile Tauroxes), I can get a Valkyrie which brings air support, decently hefty 12/12/10 versus 11/10/10 of the Taurox Primes, and arguably a better all around vehicle. I do get longer reaching missiles on the missile Taurox, but the Valkyrie gets Ordinance on its one use AT missiles and large blast for its frag missiles. This would mean that I would be sacrificing the Ground Assault Formation (which does give my guys twin linked and pinning upon disembarking), but getting a decent vehicle.

 

Should I forgo the two other Taurox Primes for two Valkyries?

[Lord Hanaur]

I dont like Valkyries, personally.  The ordinance rule on that one weapon is such a bummer.  Its a lot more expensive than a Taurox and Im not sure its any less dangerous to trust putting your stuff in one given the grounding rules for planes.

[AbusePuppy]

The Valkyrie is an excellent airplane, albeit one with a limited role- you will always swap out the Hellstrike Missiles for Rocket Pods because the Hellstrikes are just absolutely awful. (The sponson Heavy Bolters are a solid option, I think, and one I would usually go for, but aren't mandatory.) The caveat on it, however, is that it can really only hurt infantry- and that means you need to set up the rest of your army to be able to wreck vehicles.

 

The Airborne Assault formation is pretty decent but does commit you to a plan that leaves a lot of models off the board to start; you would need to add something else to it so you wouldn't auto-lose on turn 1. An Inquisitor and some friends are an idea choice for this, since they are cheap, easy to hide, and relatively fluffy; however, almost anything can potentially do.

 

Tauroxes have reasonable firepower, but they are ridiculously easy to destroy given their cost and you can't really expect any of them to survive past the second turn or so unless you're facing a really, really weak army (or you're playing so safe with them that they basically aren't part of the battle.) Since Scions need to get up close and personal in order to achieve much of anything, I think you're better off with the Valkyries- kit your squads with Plasma or Melta and drop them out of the transports to blast open any nearby tanks, then have the Valks themselves kill all the infantry. Twin-linking all of the Scions' guns the turn they disembark ensures that they'll do their job right, and the pie plates should have a hard time missing completely.

[Guest]

Rather than end up making a different topic every time I have a question MT related, I figured I'd make this, which I do in fact have a couple questions right now.

 

1) At the moment, I'm working towards the Ground Assault Formation which consists of 4x Taurox Primes, 3x Scion Squads, 1x Command Squad, and 1x Commissar.All I need now are two more Taurox Primes and I'll have the formation and the ability to do around 1000 comfortably depending on how I configure the other two Tauroxes. Right now I have one set up with the standard configuration (battlecannon and autocannons) and one with the missile upgrade (and autocannons). My thought is to do one with with the gatling gun and volleyguns and the other as another battlecannon/autocannon Taurox.

 

However, I also am thinking of making my third squad kitted out with volleyguns. Right now I have my command squad with plasma (do them up so there's four plasma and the Tempestor Prime), a Melta squad, and a volleygun squad. In making the second volleygun squad, I'm thinking of putting them in a gatling gun Taurox Prime, and with two volleygun squads, ideally would need two gatling gun Taurox Primes.

 

Should I go with the more general purpose Taurox Prime with Battlecannon or go with the gatling gun Taurox Prime that I think will better suit the volleygun squad?

 

2) For 45 points (or 25 if I'm running the missile Tauroxes), I can get a Valkyrie which brings air support, decently hefty 12/12/10 versus 11/10/10 of the Taurox Primes, and arguably a better all around vehicle. I do get longer reaching missiles on the missile Taurox, but the Valkyrie gets Ordinance on its one use AT missiles and large blast for its frag missiles. This would mean that I would be sacrificing the Ground Assault Formation (which does give my guys twin linked and pinning upon disembarking), but getting a decent vehicle.

 

Should I forgo the two other Taurox Primes for two Valkyries?

If your army is purely Tempestus Scions, you need to establish how you cope with the basic opponent problems (Hordes, High AV vehicles, 2+ armor save infantry, flyers, 2+ cover same enemies, and high toughness). In my experience, you should have at least 2 units for each basic opponent problem. They can overlap duties, but you should still have at least 2.

 

I like the Volley gun concept, but it really doesn't give your scions anything they don't aready have lots of (ap3 shooting). 

 

As for the vehicles, ignore the durability difference on Armor Values - they're both made of paper. For durability, the Taurox Prime has a smaller profile, so is easier to hide out of LoS (not being in line of sight, that will make it survive). The Valk is a bit harder to destroy in LoS, thanks to the hard to hit and jink, but jinking will also make most of it's weapons more pathetic (can't fire blasts after jinking).

 

Regarding Hellstrike Missiles, they are viable if you intend to Jink every turn. And only because they can be snapfired, while the Large Blasts cannot fire while snapping. Hellstrike missiles are not a very useful weapon, but they are still helpful if you are snapping anyway (better than nothing),

[Guest]

As an aside, there is another "transport" option unmentioned above. You could take Fortifications, and start them in those. Fortifications can often bring the options that the Scions lack. And fortifications are often underpriced, while Scion transports are often overpriced (or rather, they are priced for a bunch of upgrades and weapons you don't really want/need).

[Wellington99]

Hmm ok. Overall I'm getting suggestions of going for the Valkyries and for my third squad being another melta squad or a plasma squad. My funds are kinda limited hence why I'm asking about either finishing off the formation or getting two Valkyries. It'll be a while before I am able to get more, which probably would be another two Valkyries to make the airborne unit.

 

In regards to an Inquisitor and some friends, what would you recommend in that regard? I'm sure I can proxy a Warhammer Fantasy Empire captain as an Inquisitor (same size, just on square base), but what kind of friends?

 

In the games I have played so far (mostly 500 points and 1000 or so point Guard games where I've tried to work in the Scions only for Sean to tell me I did it wrong and had to run my Taurox as a Chimera (story for another time)), my Taurox has been left alone most of the time. I only recently acquired the missile Taurox, in previous games it would just sit back out of range or if I ran it with Guard I had a Leman Russ tank or two taking the attention.

 

I suppose my other option would be to pivot back into Guard. I started with Tempestus but also got some Guards to have the capability to run, well, more stuff. Plus to have Leman Russ tanks on the field. However in this case I need to work out a platoon command squad so I can take MT units, or at least that's what I remember Sean saying. In that case I would be tempted to get a third Russ and make it with the Punisher gun and go from there.

[Guest]

Hmm ok. Overall I'm getting suggestions of going for the Valkyries and for my third squad being another melta squad or a plasma squad. My funds are kinda limited hence why I'm asking about either finishing off the formation or getting two Valkyries. It'll be a while before I am able to get more, which probably would be another two Valkyries to make the airborne unit.

So for limited funds, there are two weak points to Valkries. First, they are very expensive, and, second, they are a pain to transport (a huge, awkwardly shaped model).

 

That said, Valkries have been out longer than the Taurox kit, so you should be able to find some used, either by creating a thread for trading in the rogue trading secion of this forum, on ebay, or another location. The Taurox is harder to aquire in trade. 

 

Additionally, both the Valkries and the Tauroxen (or Tauroxes?) are very easy kits to make from kids toys. As long as they are painted, the right size, and look good, most opponents won't care. Sean probably has dozens of Ork vehicles make with the same logic. I've seen Valkries modeled as helecopters, many times. 

 

Personally, I don't run Valkries purely because of transport issues (I don't drive, so giant, awkward models have to be limited). I had two, and even with wings unglued, they limited my options too much. Sold those a long time ago. 

[Wellington99]

I have enough at the moment to get the Valkyries soonish. In terms of what I have to use for them, I can probably take my Sd.Kfz. 251 model for a Taurox with gatling gun, and I have a couple of those cheap model plane kits on the black stands I could use for stand ins for Valkyries.

[Lord Hanaur]

I played Militarum Tempestus at tournaments  in the ITC this year.  I strongly feel that the Ground Attack Formation is superior.  I do not like the Commissar tax, but it is what it is right?  

 

My greater success happened when I took the CAD with IG allies.  But neither list did better with Valkyries than without.  Those who have not used the army may not appreciate it's weaknesses as keenly as I do, but KNOWING you will see Riptide Wings and KNOWING you will see Magnus and so on, it seems folly to try and compete in the air with the Valkyries.  Again, just my take on it based on my experience in ITC events, using the army.  On paper anything can be made to look good but...

[pretre]

Keep in mind that you can take Valks with a separate detachment now. You can take up to three per detachment from C:IA.

[Lord Hanaur]

Keep in mind that you can take Valks with a separate detachment now. You can take up to three per detachment from C:IA.

three bad ideas is still kind of three bad ideas though.  It is such an RPS thing...  You pay 80 points for a Taurox Prime and you get what you pay for.  when you pay 130+ upgrades on a Valkyrie its a lot more expensive to begin with and you definitely do not always feel you got what you paid for.  Losing the units midair to a stray shot right along with the plane is just painful and jarring to ones chances.  A Taurox prime that has swung into position goes down, it still provides cover for  the unit forced out, they DONT all die, you did pay less and you feel like "okay, stuff dies but I'm still okay".  

 

Again, I am all for thematics, believe me.  I just know this army and its true strength like the Battle Company, is how much area it can cover and with how much Obsec.  It gets demolished every battle but their heroic stands and "one man standing left to plant the flag" kind of a thing is cool.  Casualties are just going to be copious but losing two units with one shot with no enemy fire ablation is kinda a bummer.

[AbusePuppy]

In regards to an Inquisitor and some friends, what would you recommend in that regard? I'm sure I can proxy a Warhammer Fantasy Empire captain as an Inquisitor (same size, just on square base), but what kind of friends?

 

Acolytes are great, either as naked bodies to fill out a squad (4pts/model) or with Boltguns (5pts/model) or special weapons (14pts/model.) Death Cult Assassins and Crusaders can add some hitting power and survivability to the squad, respectively, and mixing in a solo Psyker to get a chance at a useful power is a real steal. The Inquisitor themself is usually not carrying much gear, if any.

 

 

three bad ideas is still kind of three bad ideas though.  It is such an RPS thing...  You pay 80 points for a Taurox Prime and you get what you pay for.  when you pay 130+ upgrades on a Valkyrie its a lot more expensive to begin with and you definitely do not always feel you got what you paid for.  Losing the units midair to a stray shot right along with the plane is just painful and jarring to ones chances.  A Taurox prime that has swung into position goes down, it still provides cover for  the unit forced out, they DONT all die, you did pay less and you feel like "okay, stuff dies but I'm still okay". 

 

I seem to remember in our game those Tauroxes didn't exactly "get what you paid for." In fact, quite a lot of them got wrecked and exploded and killed/pinned your guys in inconvenient locations. Airplanes are MUCH harder to hurt (AV12 vs AV11, able to Jink vs not, hit on 6s vs hit on normal BS) and much more likely to deliver their payload to where you need to put them. Yeah, once in a long while someone will snipe an airplane down- but the amount of firepower needed to do so would have vaporized a Taurox thirty times over, so who cares? All units in the game can be killed, it's a matter of the effort required to do so.

 

[Lord Hanaur]

I seem to remember in our game those Tauroxes didn't exactly "get what you paid for." In fact, quite a lot of them got wrecked and exploded and killed/pinned your guys in inconvenient locations.

 

...Yeah, once in a long while someone will snipe an airplane down- but the amount of firepower needed to do so would have vaporized a Taurox thirty times over, so who cares? All units in the game can be killed, it's a matter of the effort required to do so.

 

Coyly referring to how a Riptide Wing + Skathach Knight + Drone Net with a Voidshield mauled the weakest codex there is, while seizing on me as well, is cool and all Abusepuppy.  But you're missing the key point I made for his benefit in your hurry to somehow brag about that...  Which was that the Valkyries wouldn't have been harder for that army to kill, nor would it have been a closer game for it if Wellington99 did.  

 

Just saying.

 

Losing TWO units at once in a Valkyrie crash SUUUUUUUCKS.  Getting just one on and getting it blown up?  Sucks.  These things happen.

 

We cannot foresee every battle and every opponent and every terrain setup so all we are doing is making educated guesses based on experience.  I've played the army both ways.

 

Wellington99, ultimately you might choose to do Valkyries just because they seem way cooler on the field and I'll buy off on that any day as a reason to do stuff others don't think is going to work.  If you make it work I want battle reports so i can learn.  As this game does require quite the investment from us, I think it would be wise to choose a set opponent army that is very tough and practice both ways against it.  Tau Empire would be wise as it presents the hardest counter to the army, pretty much.  Proxy the battle and see how it goes.

[Guest]

Not mentioned yet, but the scions can deep strike. So they don't really need transports at all.

 

Anyway, to the OP, if you have IG allies, that's really the way to balance out the Scions. If your close to making the scions a complete formation, I suggest finishing the formation. And if you need help understanding the IG (Astra Millitarum) codex, we'd be happy to explain anything 40k that you need help with.

[AbusePuppy]

Coyly referring to how a Riptide Wing + Skathach Knight + Drone Net with a Voidshield mauled the weakest codex there is, while seizing on me as well, is cool and all Abusepuppy.  But you're missing the key point I made for his benefit in your hurry to somehow brag about that...  Which was that the Valkyries wouldn't have been harder for that army to kill, nor would it have been a closer game for it if Wellington99 did. 

 

I don't see how you can say a flying AV12 vehicle is just as hard to kill as a ground-based AV11 one. You might not realize because you've never played the army, but it actually struggles a lot with killing airborne AV12 because it's needing 6s followed by 6s in order to do anything- and most other armies out there are in a similar position when trying to shoot down a Valkyrie.

 

(To give you the quick math- the army gets ~2 markerlight hits against a flying target, and used to boost two separate Riptides all with Burst Cannons gets you ~6 total hits, which is one penetration. The Wraithknight adds .75 penetrations and all of the scat bikes combined add 1.2 glances. Assuming the Valkyrie is willing to Jink- which it should- the odds of that killing it are very low, and that's shooting literally my entire army at a single vehicle. To contrast, a single Riptide has pretty good odds of killing a Taurox in one volley.)

 

Nothing either of us say is gonna make Scions competitive, you're right. But not all armies are equally good or equally bad- and the presumptive aim of his post was to make the best he could out of the options available. Within that context, the Valkyrie is a better transport than the Taurox Prime because it is less likely to die and more likely to deliver its contents to be in range without dying.

 

 

Not mentioned yet, but the scions can deep strike. So they don't really need transports at all.

 

The DS can be useful as an option, but on its own it's not typically enough because of the wide scatter range combined with the Scions' own short-ranged weapons. If you have Servo-Skulls or a Locator Beacon in the area it can be fine, but those have complications of their own.

 

[Wellington99]

Coyly referring to how a Riptide Wing + Skathach Knight + Drone Net with a Voidshield mauled the weakest codex there is, while seizing on me as well, is cool and all Abusepuppy.  But you're missing the key point I made for his benefit in your hurry to somehow brag about that...  Which was that the Valkyries wouldn't have been harder for that army to kill, nor would it have been a closer game for it if Wellington99 did.  

 

Just saying.

 

Losing TWO units at once in a Valkyrie crash SUUUUUUUCKS.  Getting just one on and getting it blown up?  Sucks.  These things happen.

 

We cannot foresee every battle and every opponent and every terrain setup so all we are doing is making educated guesses based on experience.  I've played the army both ways.

 

Wellington99, ultimately you might choose to do Valkyries just because they seem way cooler on the field and I'll buy off on that any day as a reason to do stuff others don't think is going to work.  If you make it work I want battle reports so i can learn.  As this game does require quite the investment from us, I think it would be wise to choose a set opponent army that is very tough and practice both ways against it.  Tau Empire would be wise as it presents the hardest counter to the army, pretty much.  Proxy the battle and see how it goes.

 

Once I've managed to recover from facing Sean's Orks. Getting a top of turn 2 wipe of your army via the Stogie Boyz was something to behold. I'll probably end up fighting Alex/Kaoshin's Tau once I have 1k points of Scions to test out. Eventually I do want to get both formations so it'll be interesting to see. I will say I am actually leaning towards the Valkyries a bit, but being able to finish the formation and deploy it would be really good to do.

 

Not mentioned yet, but the scions can deep strike. So they don't really need transports at all.

 

Anyway, to the OP, if you have IG allies, that's really the way to balance out the Scions. If your close to making the scions a complete formation, I suggest finishing the formation. And if you need help understanding the IG (Astra Millitarum) codex, we'd be happy to explain anything 40k that you need help with.

 

While they don't need transports, the formations require them. I do have a PDF of the 6th edition IG codex but not a physical copy of the most recent edition due to my expectation that Fall of Cadia would herald in one and being told that a new one would most likely be out soon(ish).

[Guest]

While they don't need transports, the formations require them. I do have a PDF of the 6th edition IG codex but not a physical copy of the most recent edition due to my expectation that Fall of Cadia would herald in one and being told that a new one would most likely be out soon(ish).

I'd been holding off for the same reason, but gave up and bought a physical copy of the AM codex the other day. Having physical copy really makes a difference.

 

I do understand that the formations require transports. You don't have to run the formations, though, but I think collecting the models so you can run them, is a good idea. 

[Guest]

The DS can be useful as an option, but on its own it's not typically enough because of the wide scatter range combined with the Scions' own short-ranged weapons. If you have Servo-Skulls or a Locator Beacon in the area it can be fine, but those have complications of their own.

 

Scatter range is bad for weapons with 12" of range, or melta weapons, but it's fine for plasma and grenade launchers (can't remember, do scions have grenade launchers?). The Tempestus Scions have those spendy Augur Arrays, which they upgrade their Tauroxen to carry. Not a great option, but there is that within the codex. With Guard allies, you can get those Augur Arrays on better vehicles and the Arrays aren't faction specific, as far as I can tell. 

[AbusePuppy]

Augur Arrays are great when they work, but the problem is they essentially require you getting a Taurox into the enemy's face and having it survive a full turn- and if you've already done that successfully, then what do you need the Array for? Just have more dudes inside of Tauroxes that disembark rather than playing games with Deep Strike.

 

I don't think there are any vehicles that are both fast enough and tough enough to make good use of the Arrays, unfortunately.

[Guest]

I don't think there are any vehicles that are both fast enough and tough enough to make good use of the Arrays, unfortunately.

It could be done, but I agree, probably not hugely rewarding without a very specific build. I would still consider a scout sentinel upgrade with one, though I wouldn't be expecting durability. 

[Wellington99]

Also somewhat related, what's a good way for Tempestus to counter Dark Angels (primarily if someone has the Dark Vengeance Dark Angels plus a couple more that they borrow to round it out from time to time) in regards to their bikes?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Wellington99 said:

Also somewhat related, what's a good way for Tempestus to counter Dark Angels (primarily if someone has the Dark Vengeance Dark Angels plus a couple more that they borrow to round it out from time to time) in regards to their bikes?

If you are using the Codex: Tempestus scions, I think that codex has some specific orders that would really make scions decimate the bikers. Otherwise, DA pay way too much for their bikes, so even with your overpriced scions, you should still outnumber them. Bikes, in this editions, are bit overpowered, so there is that working against you.

Anyway, bikes in general, rely on the jink rule. Jink is an interesting psychological option in this edition, as they must choose to jink before you deal damage (unlike going to ground). And when they jink, they're force to snapfire. So focus on getting every DA bike unit to snapfire on each turn. Don't have to wipe them, but if you force them to snap, they will be dramatically less effective in the shooting phase. DA bikes are pretty durable to shooting if you can't deny their jink (as in, denying cover), but if you do deny their cover, they won't jink (which means they won't snap). So focus fire your anti-cover weapons on the bikes you want dead, and then just direct light, other shooting, at the DA bikes that you can't defeat, just to force them to jink. 

Another consideration with marines, is melee combat. Doesn't look like it, but AM (and scions) actually have just as many attacks on their sergeants as the marine sergeants do. So, in melee, the much cheaper guardsmen can actually defeat the mighty marines in melee combat. Marines will swing first (base initiative 4), and have toughness 4 (5 for the bikes), but most marines only have a single wound and only a 3+ armor save. Take a power weapon (like a power axe) and a pistol (for the bonus attack) and you can swing with an *amazing* 3 S4 ap2 attacks and actually defeat marines in assault. You'll still get butchered sometimes, but marine players will reconsider assaults if you prove that the guardsmen don't push over in assault. If you have multiple melee characters in a unit, be sure to mix unwieldy and intiative order power weapon users, so you can kill off marines that rely on unwieldy weapons (like power fists, power axes, and thunder hammers).

[Wellington99]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

If you are using the Codex: Tempestus scions, I think that codex has some specific orders that would really make scions decimate the bikers. Otherwise, DA pay way too much for their bikes, so even with your overpriced scions, you should still outnumber them. Bikes, in this editions, are bit overpowered, so there is that working against you.

Anyway, bikes in general, rely on the jink rule. Jink is an interesting psychological option in this edition, as they must choose to jink before you deal damage (unlike going to ground). And when they jink, they're force to snapfire. So focus on getting every DA bike unit to snapfire on each turn. Don't have to wipe them, but if you force them to snap, they will be dramatically less effective in the shooting phase. DA bikes are pretty durable to shooting if you can't deny their jink (as in, denying cover), but if you do deny their cover, they won't jink (which means they won't snap). So focus fire your anti-cover weapons on the bikes you want dead, and then just direct light, other shooting, at the DA bikes that you can't defeat, just to force them to jink. 

Another consideration with marines, is melee combat. Doesn't look like it, but AM (and scions) actually have just as many attacks on their sergeants as the marine sergeants do. So, in melee, the much cheaper guardsmen can actually defeat the mighty marines in melee combat. Marines will swing first (base initiative 4), and have toughness 4 (5 for the bikes), but most marines only have a single wound and only a 3+ armor save. Take a power weapon (like a power axe) and a pistol (for the bonus attack) and you can swing with an *amazing* 3 S4 ap2 attacks and actually defeat marines in assault. You'll still get butchered sometimes, but marine players will reconsider assaults if you prove that the guardsmen don't push over in assault. If you have multiple melee characters in a unit, be sure to mix unwieldy and intiative order power weapon users, so you can kill off marines that rely on unwieldy weapons (like power fists, power axes, and thunder hammers).

Huh ok. I think I can work in a power weapon into my squads. I think I usually give my Lord Commissar one along with carapace armor and a plasma pistol but giving my Tempestors one won't be too unreasonable.

 

I've also swapped around between the bolt pistol and hotshot laspistol for them, and I've actually began preferring the hotshot laspistol. For as weak as it is, the AP3 eliminates the armor save quite nicely. Not that I've gotten many kills with either on my Tempestors

[Wellington99]

2 minutes ago, necrontyr said:

Do not try and beat Dark Angel biker in Assault with Stormtroopers. At T5 you're wounding them on 6's with power swords or 5's with axes. You don't have the attacks or the bodies to get through them. You're best best bet is shooting, either through plasma, melta, or the sniper order. You still have to get through the re-rollable jink save, and they can still assault you, but sticking to the Tempestus only, you're kinda boned. 

You can always get some Imperial Guard, they have the ignores cover order and Wyverns, Hellhounds, and Leman Russ Eradicators which also ignore cover.

Hmm. Well considering I was going to get Wyverns for my guard army, it wouldn't be unfeasable.

[Guest]

On February 27, 2017 at 4:14 PM, necrontyr said:

Do not try and beat Dark Angel biker in Assault with Stormtroopers. At T5 you're wounding them on 6's with power swords or 5's with axes. You don't have the attacks or the bodies to get through them. You're best best bet is shooting, either through plasma, melta, or the sniper order. You still have to get through the re-rollable jink save, and they can still assault you, but sticking to the Tempestus only, you're kinda boned. 

You can always get some Imperial Guard, they have the ignores cover order and Wyverns, Hellhounds, and Leman Russ Eradicators which also ignore cover.

Agree on the bikes. T5 is tough for guardsmen in melee. Could try the power mauls, but that means allowing SM their armor saves. Could try power fists, too, but same issues with axe in that you'll swing second, plus fists are very expensive and you swing with less attacks.

For the rest of the DA, though, T4 isn't so tough. Those axes will work just fine against terminators and marines alike. 

Regarding the mentioned anti-cover weapons, the key issue here for Guardsmen is that they can't deny both armor and cover with the same weapon against marines. This is something much more common in the newer codexes, but guard just don't have it. So you'll have to deny cover, then rely on 3 hits only killing 1 marine. So regarding the Wyvern, the weapon is nice since you can really stack the hits. Could check forgeworld, they do have other options for guard, many of which should help with this issue.

There is another option, but it is very iffy - The Deathstrike, can certainly deny armor and cover at the same time, but you only get a single shot and it usually scatters. I've never killed enough with my deathstrike to really justify it, but it's really fun to have on the table. If you don't care too much about winning, the Deathstrike could be a fun option here.

And then of course, you could just take allies. AM and scions have lots of ally options.