spagunk

"Citation needed" ....sure. http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334575-death-company-8th-edition-and-power-mauls/?p=4782398 http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/334575-death-company-8th-edition-and-power-mauls/?p=4782405 For a quick couple of examples.

Well I am not speaking specifically about berzerkers with regards to effectiveness. I am speaking about things like Thunderwolf calvary, Vanguard Vets (with gear, mind you), Wolfin, Howling banshees, Eldar anything etc. Basically any assault unit besides regular assault marines. I initially wrote a big long hypothetical example where I showed how DC approach nearly 50points per marine to get close to effective (without weapons) but deleted it. People mathhammered that to death already.

HOLY SMOKES people. I'm absolutely NOT comparing old stats. I'm comparing current stats/abilities with stats and abilities of other ARMIES in 8th edition. Christ almighty.

Responses in red.

They are amazing, just not in the rules department. . Look, I already know the whole meta shifts due to the new edition. I FRIGGIN GET THAT. However I have been watching very keenly on the various armies and have noticed that a lot of armies had received compensation for removal of old traits. My whole point though is that BA were specifically short changed on that aspect and received a pretty mediocre compensation mechanism. We were never top tier through 6th and 7th edition. Far from it as BA were considered basically only a bit better than Orks, Nids and Dark Eldar. So instead of buffing us a bit, they nerf us even more? That's just not fair at all. I center on DC because everyone thinks they are sooooo good this edition. All statistics prove otherwise as we have to sink so many points to buff the one unit so they accomplish something. That is not a balance, that's a crutch. Why am I sinking points into a priest, a chaplain and a librarian just to get a single unit to have a good chance at killing anything? Isn't this supposed to be the anti-deathstar edition? Why does Dante basically have crap to do with the army besides being a beat stick (Strategic Genius is where now?) Why am I paying almost twice the points for a Baal Pred when I can spend half that for a razorback and only lose a wound and an attack? Why are we still being short changed on BA affiliated anti-air? On the flip side, I think Sanguinary guard are about where they need to be. That was a single example of something good they did. The only negative is that they have only a very narrow window of effectiveness: Too pricey for horde clearing and too squishy for hunting MC equivalent. I think they are probably going to be terminator hunters and lower wound characters. If you do throw them at multi-woulds, you absolutely have to get the charge in as it is a bit too easy to circumvent a 2+ save (intentional, I know) nowadays. I definitely see sticking a libby in there or having them spear head an assault with a Libby dread in tow for a nice 4+ Inv save.

I want you to stop saying they are awesome when, in fact, they are just "Okay".

None of this seems to relay much thought into how the army actually works. Besides, they used to ignore wounds on a 5+ before, they already had +1 Str from furious charge AND got +1 WS with priests. Jump packs were already there, albeit not as "super" as they are now. We also already had those weapon options with the exception that now we can get them on dev squads (if you can actually get them in range properly). I just don't see much thought into them other than "let's make them an aura army" without understanding what made BA actually good: Fast, hard strikes right into the enemies face.

Speaking from someone with tons of BA, I just think they could have put a bit more thought into the army from the start. Why does my DC cost more than berzerkers again?

"BA/Death Company are awesome if you pump 600pts of Named characters who can be one shot by anyone with sniper weapons!!!"