McNathanson

They make me so cray cray with all their renaming existing colors, putting in new ones, cutting old ones, changing them slightly, etc etc... lordy, thanks for the totally unnecessary headache and wasted time and effort dudes!

[edit] removed dumb questions, leaving, well, nothing ;)

Awesome, awesome feedback!  Thank you!!

I can make the changes on the Firewarriors, but it only gets me back about 30 pts under 2k, which means I have to cut to get any of the things you suggested.  My first question is why is 3 Ghostkeels overkill, because I don't want to have to shoot my whole army at a single target unit to get BS5... or is that the argument about Coordinated Fire, people suggesting that you can Target Lock to a different target but still get the CF +1 BS bonus?

Riptide, yes I don't know why I didn't have the EWO on there, oversight... thanks.  Will change to Ion weapon too!

The Terminators can definitely go Psycannon/DH, I was just trying to use as few points as possible and trying to imagine what their role would be... seems to me that if their primary use is to fight assault units that get to my lines, the Halberds are pretty good choice.  

The ranged weapons on the Dreadknight are so expensive!  I don't know if I should invest more points in more shooting on a model that can't join the Tau fun... but if I can find a good sword conversion for my model, I'd definitely switch to the sword over the hammer.  Regarding adding shooting wpns, vs. the Teleporter, in the end I think I prefer the mobility over the shooting again because his role is to protect my Tau from deep striking assault units and other stuff that gets on to my lines, and that teleporter makes him so much better at getting into CC.  But as a standalone model I agree the ranged weapons are worth it... in my GK army, both DKs carry a full loadout (mostly because all the rest of the army is irrelevant, hah!)

I'll make the Firewarrior, Riptide and Commander changes and see if I can eek out the points from elsewhere without dropping the 3rd Ghostkeel... however if the Coordinated Fire rules let them easily get BS5 and still shoot other targets, then the 3rd Ghostkeel isn't nearly as important...

So I've got a first cut at a ~2000 point list, but I'm not quite able to fit everything I want.  Here's where I'm at, please let me know what you would change!  Bear in mind I have NO idea about meta or matchups or even what is in other Codices.  I just based this off reading other lists and looking at the Tau rules, plus trying to fit in a few of my favorite Grey Knight models as allies to give me a tiny bit of CC:

Hunter Cadre - 969pts

(Supporting Fire within 12"; Units within 12" of Commander or Fireblade at start of shooting phase can Run and then immediately Shoot)

- Basically here I'm going for the nearly-bare-minimum to get the Riptide and Stormsurge, plus markerlights to support them.

Commander (Stim, Drone Ctrl, C&C Node, 2x Markers) - 147pts

- Seems like a pretty standard "Buff-mander", and I can see why 2 BS5 marker lights re-rolling misses is pretty awesome.

3x 5 Strike Team w/ Shas'ui and MV36 Guardian Drone - 67pts x3

- I can definitely see dropping the Shas'ui and Drone from the Strike teams because at min size that's a lot of points to invest in protection that would be a lot more efficient in a larger unit.  On the other hand I'd actually prefer to up all 3 teams to size 9, because I like the look of more infantry.

1 Riptide - 180pts

- This guy seems too awesome to pass on and since my Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels are in a separate Cadre, it's this guy or the Crisis Suits.

4 Marker Drones - 56 points

- Can my Commander join this unit and have 6 Marker Drones using his BS etc.?  Or will I want to be able to Marker 2 different units?

- Should I invest in a Guardian Drone for the whole unit?

1 Stormsurge w/ Pulse Driver Cannon, TL SMS, Cluster Rocket System, 4x Destroyer Missiles, TL AFP, and Early Warning Override - 385 points

- Holy Beast.  This guy's just insane when he drops his stabilizers and shoots twice!!

Optimized Stealth Cadre - 610pts

(At start of shooting phase, can network stealth so that Ghostkeels, and any Stealth Suit within 6" of Ghostkeel, have Ignore Cover, +1 BS, and hit rear armor)

- This is the most Ghostkeels I can get for the points spent, cuz they are awesome looking!

2x 3 Stealth Battlesuits w/ Burst Cannons - 90 pts x2

- Min required

3 Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker and TL Fusion Blaster, 2 w/ Target Lock - 430pts

- I feel like putting 3 in one unit is better than splitting them up... at this size they get +1 BS for a unit of 3 MC, and also +1 BS for Cadre power, meaning they're already BS 5 with their CIRs and ignoring cover before adding Markerlights.  So in general I expect the Hunter Cadre will use the Marker, and these guys will be able to handle their own.  Big question is whether the Countermeasures can be used 3x (once for each model) or 1x (once for the whole unit).

That puts me at 1579 points.

I'd also love to be able to include my custom Forgeworld Nemesis Dreadknight, and the beautiful Grey Knight Terminators I have, but I'm over points:

Nemesis Strike Force - 450 

(roll for Deep Striking units to arrive starting turn 1)

GK Librarian - 110pts

- cheapest HQ outside of a techmarine

5 GK Terminators w/ Halberds - 175pts

- probably a waste of points but then again so are Grey Knight Strike Force...

1 Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Personal Teleporter and Daemonhammer - 165pts

- This guy is a CC stud and gets around the battlefield to help out wherever Assault units might be threatening my Tau

I'm 29 points over 2000 with the above.  I already dislike how small my Strike teams are.  The simplest way to get under points is definitely to drop the Shas'ui and Guardian Drones, which gets me back 66 points, and I could even up the size of my Strike teams a tiny bit, or get Iridium on the Commander.   I'm unclear whether the Strike Teams, Terminators, and Stealth Teams are going to be sufficient for objectives... I haven't played nearly enough to have a clue.  But the Kill Power on this list seems pretty insane, and they're highly mobile.

Anyway, that's about all the thinking I have... please bring on the suggestions, I won't have my feelings hurt!  I do LOVE the small model count and with an airbrush and some tips on how to paint all the "creases" in the armor I think I could actually get this army painted in a reasonable amount of time.

Thanks again for the help guys, sincerely appreciated!!

Nathan

I can definitely see where that reading comes from- the first part of the text does, indeed, refer to its use by a single model. However, the part I quoted ("declare that the unit") seems to say that you have to use them all together, which seems like a reasonable limitation- the whole unit benefits from it, so the whole unit has to expend it.

 

I definitely see where you are coming from, I just think that it is reasonably read both ways, and therefore probably will need a FAQ. But what do I know?!

I thought that could be read as "the unit will take the protection of the HC"... the very first line where it says "once per battle, a model..." makes me think its supposed to be a single model using it each time it's used.

Clearly a big difference!

Holophton Countermeasures (Tau codex p.123) rule reads:

 

 

Once per battle, in the enemy Shooting phase, a model equipped with holophoton countermeasures can disrupt the targeting systems used by one enemy unit that is targeting it or the unit it belongs to.  Declare that the unit will use the holophoton countermeasures after the enemy unit has chosen it as a target, but before any hit rolls are made.  The enemy unit can only make Snap Shots in that shooting phase.

It's not clear to me whether a unit of 3 Ghostkeels gets to use this up to three separate times (each model using it once to protect the unit it is in)?  Or does somehow using one require all the models to all use all of them at once?

Well okay, May it is then :)

Hoffman yeah I've played with all his available toys... Joss is right up there, Ryle turns out to be pretty solid too, and then of course Metal Gamin, Steam Arachnid Swarm, Howard Langston, Peacekeeper, Hunters, Watchers, Guardian, etc.

I think the trap that people fall into with Hoffman is getting too excited about all his looping and upgrading that they spend all their time/effort doing that, and not playing Malifaux.  That said, even if you turn your attention to playing the game, and try to make Hoffman do more work than just buffing and handing out AP, he's still miserably limited due to his short range, and his crew is often hampering by trying to stay in touch with him.  Still there's potential in just a +1 Armor H. Langston and a Nimble Arachnid Swarm running around (the Swarm is hilarious at Ml 7).  I just go back to feeling like his abilities constrain your activation order and positioning so much that unless you opponent says, "Okay let's be dumb and have a brawl with your Hoffball" you are going to get out played.

I don't know about an "easy button", closest two things I've seen there are Lilith's Illusory Forest + Tangled Shadows, and Leveticus' activate/kill/bury/repeat.  But those aren't enough to win the game unless you play well and that's not easy if you have a good opponent across from you, IMO!  My main observation regarding balance is that, if both players are playing well, you end up with a smaller set of Masters that seem to be able to hang, through a combination of power and low cognitive burden, and a whole bunch more that don't quite cut it unless you're really outplaying your opponents.  Eh, good thing we hire crews after announcing factions ;)

It is if we can just get these old fogeys to quit with their "get off my lawn" version of warhammer!

This, when I was *just* starting to accept that 40k has become a game futuristic battles, played on 28mm scale battlefield, using He-Man Action Figure scale models!

Paxmiles, what you describe is effectively the "house rule" we are trying out, which is that models can count as having their bases on two different heights, with no more than 1" difference, for purposes of base-to-base contact.  However the FAQ states they must literally be physically touching, which I think is a short-sighted FAQ answer.  If they just said they have to be aligned edge-to-edge (as if they were touching), but can but up to 1" in ht difference, and still count, that would have fixed it.  As it is you can end up with really funky situations based on this FAQ.  I know, a seemingly small matter, but it can change a game dramatically!

Sheesh man! :P

 

I think with Malifaux you don't need to worry about external balances as much assuming that the players do not pigeon hole their lists. If you always play your Lilith crew and I always play my... something squishy, then the game might be lopsided and unfun for us. But, if I see your crew and change up my next one a bit, and you do the same, it keeps things fresh and balances out.

 

But back to the question, Seamus is pretty nasty, but I am not sure how he stacks up to the other ressers as I have played them all little to none under M2E. Gremlins, being my main faction (mostly due to paint and excessive fun), Somer is the king of all trades (forget Jack). You can center a crew on him to do any strats and schemes you want. Ophelia is like a mini Perdita. Her and her family are the outright deadly when used right, but probably a bit harder to use than the Perdita crew due to being a bit squishier. Brewmaster is a super crazy denier. He creates a bubble of "You can't do that" which is really odd, but fun, though I have not played him since he was finalized due to delays in model production (have them now, just haven't gotten them on the table yet.)

Oops I think you may have misread my tone... or maybe I mistyped my tone?  Anyway I was just sayin', yeah I know it reads like Optimizing For the Win but it's really more of an exploration of the game's balance at this point!  Sorry if I sounded harsh, I didn't *feel* harsh when I wrote it :)

Great pointers on the Gremlins... those models are hilarious and my BFF/bestie/bestguybuddy just got them, so we'll have those little green basturds in the mix soon enough :)

I have to admit (and again, just an early-exposure opinion!) that I'm a tad disappointed with the intra-faction balance... C Hoffman, for example, is so constrained by the range of his abilities and by the order in which is Robots have to activate that he's pretty much pants as far as I can tell.  I mean I've won with him but it's SO much more work than with Sonnia or Perdita, which is in my opinion a good measure of a Master from a tournament perspective (i.e. high cognitive burden sucks because it's exhausting and leaves less bandwidth for looking at what your opponents is doing, etc.)

Anyway are you at all interested in a few games to learn me on what Somer can do??  I'd love to get exposed to as many Masters as possible!  I have a great table set up at my house if you're game for playing on a weeknight after dinner and kids bedtime... PM me!

Power gamer.

Some see it that way I'm sure :)  

My brothers and I like to explore the game balance of a new game.  With WFB this led us to decide that it was so severely unbalanced that we ended up being some of the strongest proponents out there for NOT playing purely to win, but rather working with your opponent to create a fun, close game in a tournament setting.  

But the jury's out on whether Malifaux needs that kind of attention, or whether it can stand on it's own.  It has a lot of basic mechanics that lend to good intrinsic balance (e.g. choosing crews after announcing factions, and choosing schemes after announcing crews).  And there are some really good players that say it's pretty good balance wise, too!  So I'm hopeful that we can just play it as it stands and still have fun, close games!

Leveticus is a straight up beast.  So far he and Lilith have my vote for most overtly powerful Masters, and his crew selection seems stronger.

What you have listed here would work great for AoS but you definitely have two armies here. Are those chosen metal or crap cast?

Crap cast!  I actually like it.  But it's not as good as plastic :)

My experience so far is that there are a handful of Masters that are a cut above the rest.

In our play group we've got Neverborn (Lilith and Zoraida mostly), Arcanists (Colette, Ramos, Rasputina), Guild (Sonnia, Perdita, LJ, Hoffman), Ressers (Molly, Seamus, Nicodem) and recently Outcasts for Leveticus.

Of these, Lilith, Colette, Sonnia, Molly and Leveticus seem to be better suited to nearly all the strats, schemes and terrain layouts we try out on.  We often find success with crews or elements of crews that "belong" to another master (e.g. Swamp Fiends, Ortegas, etc.) but are instead run with these 5 Masters.  It's not QUITE an "anything you can do, I can do better" situation, but it seems like these Masters are nearly always a better choice than their faction's alternatives.

Since we have only tried the above listed masters, I'm first of all curious if there are well-known "top tier" Masters/Crews that we are missing from our play group? I hear good things about Pandora, Marcus, Von Schill, Tara and maybe Mei Feng.

And secondly, does this assessment line up with your experience, particularly the more seasoned tournament players among you?  I am not trying to assert this with conviction, but rather sharing our observations from an admittedly-limited exposure.

Thanks!
Nathan

That's really helpful thanks!  So maybe divide it into units of warscroll size, and sell them separately (but all at once with combined shipping)?

I can go through the AoS warscrolls and see what sizes the units come in.  Just to be sure I understand, you're suggesting grouping them into min-sized units (excepting the hounds), right?

I guess I didn't realize quite how recent the codex was, I just saw it on the shelves and got it from Guardian.  That explains it :)

I haven't played AoS but I'm hoping you guys can take a look at my model selection for my WFB Khorne Legions list and tell me if it would be a good AoS model selection?  I want to sell it as AoS/WFB if it makes sense, to get more out of it from potential AoS players.

It's pro-painted, has all GW's Khorne-specific stuff (their Khorne Banners of Rage unit standards, Khorne character models, etc.), uses all the most recent models.  Only drawback I think is that it's square-based... not sure if that's a deterrent to AoS player? Anyway here's the model list.

1 Bloodthirster
1 Khorne Chaos Lord on Juggernaut
1 Khorne Exalted Hero with Axe and Shield
1 Chaos Lord on Daemonic Mount
1 Chaos Lord on foot
3 sets of Chosen Command
25 (5 sets of 5) Chosen
1 Chaos Chariot
1 Gorebeast Chariot
12 Chaos Knights
6 Skullcrushers of Khorne
20 Chaos Warhounds
1 Hellcannon

What do you AoS guys think, should I list this as an AoS army as well?  Or just defunct WFB with potential to convert?

Thanks,
Nathan

I realize I'm continuing to be lazy but hey if people are willing to help... what's up with Army Builder? It seems to show some of the new units (e.g. Stormsurage) but not all of them (e.g. no Optimised Stealth Cadre).  I may be doing something wrong w.r.t. formations as I've never used them before now in Army Builder.  Is there something I'm missing, or is the current datafile incomplete?

Thanks!!
Nathan

I feel like such a jerk.

Right?!!

This is great stuff, and gets me a lot closer to understanding what kind of army I can think about fielding.

Lord Hanaur, thanks a lot for the time and knowledge poured into that post, very, very helpful.

AbusePuppy, thank you for the advice on GKs, I'll think about how I might tweak them.  But you know how it is when you get excited about a new army, it's pretty hard to put the idea back down :)  So that said, would you care to take a shot at a build and general battle plan?  I would love to have a few opinions to look over and glean from!!

Thanks again guys, I bought the codex and will spend a little time reading it and circle back with some ideas based off LH (and potentially APs) suggestions.  Oh and I still need to look for the list suggested by ML that fluger cited!

So fun.  Now if I just didn't have to assemble frikkin' models.  Maybe someone in the area who is good and clean assembly and cool poses would take $$ to build them for me??  Anyone interested?

@fluger:  Thanks man, I read the post you linked and the responses... looks like one thing I'll need is something(s) to kill his WraithKnight(s).  I'll look for that post by MikhailLenin!

@abusepuppy:  Let's see, in past games it's mostly consisted of Eldar Wave Serpents with Guardians, and then a squad each of Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions, Scouts, and maybe 3 or 6 War Walkers, plus that flyer that can move laterally (turn, move, turn), and the WK.  

My GKs are usually pretty CC heavy, with Paladins or Terminators, a squad of GKs, Interceptors, a Storm Raven, and one or two DreadKnights (my MVPs, always).

He's too mobile for me to catch and outguns me pretty badly... I usually get one good hit in when I DS, then I chase him around getting shot at.  Only my Interceptors and DKs can catch him, and they aren't enough.

We've swapped armies and I handled him as easily as vice versa.  We even played a 500+ point advantage (can't recall exactly) for the GKs and they still lost.

Maybe there's something I'm doing wrong with the GKs, but they just seem too slow and too expensive!  But I'm by no means a 40k player... WFB was always my game :)

@LH: no, Vespids just look dumb to me :)

Hey guys, I have this stupid Grey Knights army that is fully painted and cool and stuff except the only person I play (ever) is my buddy and his "I beat GK all the time no matter what" Eldar.  He's a good player and I play once a year, granted, but even when I outplay him (by his own admission) I lose, just not by as much.

So that being said, I am thinking of selling my Grey Knights and building a Tau army instead... I had Tau before and sold them to buy my Grey Knights, but that's okay because they weren't painted :P  But the point is I've always thought they look awesome.  And what kind of jerk doesn't like the Greater Good?!

Anyway, given that I don't want Kroot or Vespids, can someone propose a solid Tau army?  A few other optional criteria that would be nice if possible (but most important is that it's tough and can kill stupid Eldar and their walk-run-shoot-win cheating selves):

1) Fewer models is better than more models purely for $$ and time to build/paint sake

2) Large models are easier than smaller models since I have an airbrush

3) I like the Firewarriors (rifles or carbines, both look awesome), Pathfinders, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerheads, Pirahna, Riptide/Ghostkeel/Stormsurge etc models. the best; the planes and tanks (outside of Railgun Hammerhead) are fine, but not as cool to me as the others... basically, I like the small/med/large/xlarge robot guys :)

Since I don't play more than once or twice yearly I have zero hope of playtesting and building a good army myself, so I'm counting on you, my Ordo 40k experts, to do me proud.

Thanks a million for lending me your expertise!!

Nathan

Also while I'm at it: do you allow models to go through doorways if their bases cannot fit?  The plastcraft terrain buildings I have use doorways that are about 35mm wide, so that only 30mm models can fit through.  We have been disallowing 40mm+ models from using the doorways, but that looks pretty funny on a Steam Arachnid Swarm not being able to enter the building, while Johan can :)