AbusePuppy

I'm still waiting to see those plastic Sisters.

A:  Models remaining. So if a unit of 1 Dreadnought is missing 2 Hull points, it is still a unit of one and therefore considered at or above half strength. 

I presume this is a typo, since Dreadnoughts normally have 3HP. Or we are using some very confusing math.

The idea that increasing the supply of a model that is currently out of print would somehow raise the price, I'm assuming.

Regarding T3 vs T4, I understand that's the fluff, but what I'm seeing is GW establishing that PA girls aren't as strong as PA men in the 40k universe.

I actually don't mind Sisters having a different statline in the game, either rules-wise or fluff-wise. They aren't WS3 S3 T3 because they're women, it's because they're human; Inquisitors have almost exactly the same statline, whether male or female, and so the implication is that while Power Armor makes you stronger than a normal human, it's not by enough to earn an actual stat bump (an idea that is supported by the FFG roleplaying games.) And actually you can buy Power Armor for your Acolytes in an Inquisitorial detachment as well, which remain S3 T3 models.

Also not true. Females [gamer or otherwise] just want to be represented like the other humans of the setting. In 40k, human women are an alien race, functionally unique to a single army. They are a thematic army, like SW, they focus on a particular theme. For SW, that's the vikings and wolves. For sisters, their entire theme is being female... A gender should be more than just a thematic army concept.

This is exactly my problem with it: "being women" is not a theme for an army. Female gamers- as well as minority gamers, etc- are often put off by the overt focus on masculinity in the game, and rightly so, because there is almost zero representation of them in the hobby. It would be fairly trivial for GW to include it, but they have chosen not to- and that is a decision that reflects poorly on both them as a game company and us as a hobby entire.

Representation matters. Not every pictures needs to be a multiethnic omnigendered picture of harmony, but when you can count the number of female characters in the entire hobby on one hand, when you are hard-pressed to name even a single non-white person in the entire setting, that's indicative of a problem. It's a signal to minorities of all sorts that we don't think they matter or are important, and believe me it's one that they are wholly aware of even if many of us are blind to it.

And regarding fluff, GW writes the fluff to sell models. They are very clear about their focus being selling models. I think they'd sell more models if they got some female representation in the SM and CSM factions.

See, this is one that really makes me wonder, fluff-wise. Okay, so sure, the Imperium is crippled by is rigid adherence to tradition and protocol and ancient ways of doing things that means they will never, ever, ever create any female Space Marines because that's not the way we used to do things so we have to do it that way forever.

But Chaos is all about breaking free of limitations. Why has Fabius Bile not created any female CSM? That's throwing away half of your entire potential stock right there!

Not going at all, but he wanted help getting a good Q & A together. That's the exclusive reason I've been contributing. Not really even sure where the event  is, though I'd guess somewhere in washington...

If you are interested in going up, we have a vehicle with some space coming from Corvallis and I'm sure we could arrange to grab you along the way.

2: Regarding the Wipe Condition of Sudden Death Victory, do models that can't be destroyed (like purchased aegis lines) qualify as "owned models"? Furthermore, do unmanned fortifications like the Armored Shipping Crates or Imperial Bunkers qualify as surviving models?

This is one that's actually relevant outside of that context as well, since according to LH fortifications will count as a "destroyed battlefield role" for purposes of the Break Their Force Cohesion mission. So if you have an Aegis Line with a Quad Gun, does killing the Quad Gun (the only destroyable part of the fortification) count as eliminating the entire fortification? What about if you only purchased the Aegis Line- would the enemy receive the points automatically?

 I dont need the world to be gender neutral.  I think that entire idea is stupid.  Girls are girls.  Let them be.  Guys are guys.  Let them be.  And Marines DO in fact have a codpiece.  they are male in seemingly no uncertain terms.  Which is fine.

I guess I feel like segregating the world by gender isn't actually a great plan. Or, more accurately, it's a plan we thought was great a century or two ago but have now started to realize that maybe it's not so hot.

And yes, Marines do have armor over their crotch- but it isn't hyper-emphasized the way a boobplate is. You never see male models with their dicks almost hanging out; you don't see codpieces shaped to emphasize their penis and how huge it is. Male and female representation in the game are vastly different.

I uh...WANT...my models to look like girls.  So.

The idea that models can only "look like girls" if their sexual characteristics are hyperemphasized is part of the problem. No one complains that Space Marines don't "look like men" because they lack enormous codpieces.

Full fluff response: Having the Marines be a brotherhood (giant warrior monks) and the Sisters be a sisterhood (battle nuns) is a good balance of single-sex factions in 40k, and fits with the faith-and-war facet of the Imperium.  Shoehorning female Marines in would not improve 40k and would only hurt it.

Having two different armies with different fluff is good- an army of "unenhanced" elite soldiers still wearing power armor with lower overall stats but various abilities to represent their unfailing devotion, etc, is a great contrast to the "we're good at everything but not very specialized" idea of Marines.

However, differentiating the armies by gender is silly and backwards, and it falls back to the old "innate differences" argument that so much sexism originates from. Eldar, Tau, Imperial Guard, Dark Eldar, etc, etc, can all have armies not composed of one gender (even if in the fluff they are always all male 100% of the time except for the ones wearing sexy bondage outfits), why not Space Marines and Sisters of Battle as well? Marines are far more akin to knights than to monks- the ascetic parts of their fluff are essentially abandoned or forgotten in the modern incarnations. So have "Sisters (and Brothers) of Battle" represent the elite of the faithful and have "Space Marines" be the enhanced warriors- you lose nothing, either in fluff or army differentiation.

OK, but here's the real question: will the codex be bad?

Greyfax is a nice inclusion, though.

Yeah, the two big downsides to 30K guys as compared to normal are lack of ATSKNF and bad squad scaling on the low end of things. I think those are both excellent design choices on FW's part in order to encourage a particular type of play in 30K (though I would take issue with the base price of a lot of their units- stuff like Assault Marines in particular), but they don't do it any favors from a competitive standpoint.

Realistically, 10 specials is complete overkill even against a superheavy target- four Meltaguns is a pretty reliable way to drop a Knight once you're bypassing the Shield (and it's not that hard to bypass the Shield if you are playing smart), ten is just wasteful in most cases. If we're looking to the strengths of HH units, it's their ridulous relic items, their too-good-for-40K superheavy units, and a handful of other nasty tricks you can play. Like most FW stuff, 80% of the units in the books are just useless chaff that there is no reason to take, it's that top 5% that makes the army excellent.

Those 30k 10-man special weapon teams really make me scoff at any arguements that 40k is more potent than 30k. 10 melta guns in one SM squad arriving via drop pod should be enough to decimate most super heavy options. In 40k, your lucky if you can even field a unit with 4 special weapons...not including combi-weapons.

While I actually agree with you in the general sense, since I think 30K has a lot of really strong stuff people aren't very aware of, the special weapon squads aren't one of them in my opinion. Zero ablative bodies means they take casualties very badly and (more importantly) they can't just buy a Drop Pod, you have to have your whole army dropping in if you want to use any at all.

Yeah but most of the Primarchs will actually lose a fight to a Knight, especially one with AV14 in front and eight HP. One six on the Stomp table and they're out.

I don't think he's a "must take" or anything, but I think he is significantly better than most of the other Knights. He compares a bit poorly with a Warhound, to be certain, but it's almost impossible to field a Warhound in 30K in the first place.

Since almost all tournaments in the northwest use ITC rules including OFCC itself, that seems like the most relevant way to discuss things.

Karamazov has always been able to join squads, hasn't he? Can't get in transports,but could hang with a squad.

Acastus Knight Porphyrion: £320 ~ US$400  and about 500 points, with experimental Forge World Rules

 

Imperial Knight Crusader: US$157   and 425 points + options

 

The AKP has Night Fighting and can reroll 1's on the armor penetration table, so 17% of the time? Otherwise, similar rules, different Armor, which could be an issue, really, anything that can pop 12+ can usually pop 14 no problem. Still have to deal with the stupid Ion Shield.

 

I wonder which one will get more play time?

When comparing the two Knights I would assume Crusader with a missile pod on top, which is ~460pts? You're paying 35pts more to turn your 2 heavy stubbers and 1 heavy flamer into two Autocannons, plus the improved armor values plus the extra HP.

Occular Augmentics are actually reroll 1s on the vehicle damage table, not armor penetration. It's kinda a weird rule.

The difference between AV12 on the sides and AV13 on the sides can't be understated. There are a lot of S6-7 guns in the game that can hurt a regular Knight, but can't touch a Porphyrion. Of course, that matters more for some armies than others- for someone like DE or Orks, the differences are negligible.

Of course, being that it's a 30K unit not a 40K one none of this is relevant as of yet, and even if it does get released in 40K I don't expect it will make any huge waves; it does a decent job of shooting deathstars down (since it pops T5 models and pierces 2+ armor, the two most relevant qualities, while also essentially ignoring Invisibility and being naturally quite accurate) but doesn't really do anything to stop FMCs, Pink Horrors, Eldar, or a lot of the other stuff out there.

You crazy, man. "Defensively, not much better than a Land Raider." "Thunderblitz is about as good as Stomps."

For FW, really doesn't sound that broken. I can't view the PDF right now, so just going with your description. No D melee is a big balance point, as is Initiative 3. 

People run the Crusader (i.e. double-gun) Knight all the time- in fact, it's one of the most popular variants. Two double pie plates and two Autocannons plus a rocket pod all built in on the base chassis is a pretty devastating amount of firepower, and AV14/13/12 actually makes it a lot harder for most things to damage than a regular Knight- it is, for example, immune to Scatter Lasers from anywhere but its rear arc and can even ignore Autocannons in its front arc, not to mention the two extra HP it comes with.

I think most players would be more than happy to sub out the Crusader for the Porphyrion at this price.

I mean if we wanna get really thematic, then obvious we're putting on Bolt Thrower.

I think you misspelled "Metal Gods" by Judas Priest there. Might wanna correct that typo, friend.

This thing is pretty bonkers-strong. Not only does it throw out four twin-linked BS5 S10 AP2 pie plates, it's also got several backup weapons as well as AV14 to shrug off almost anything that is hitting it. Wth eight HP and the stronger armor values it is WAY tougher than a normal Knight for only a moderate increase in price; it gets chewed up easily in close combat by other superheavies due to Init 3 and no D weapon, but there are plenty of easy ways around that if we're being honest.

I'm glad there's no 40K rules for this thing, for the time being at least.

If you're charging a tank, the masses of S5 hits should down it easily. If you're fighting a walker, S7 probably isn't going to do the job, nor will S6 when you're off the charge; I'd rather pay for the Power Fist or Meltabombs. The Maul has its uses on a lot of units, but I don't really like it in a World Eaters army, generally speaking.

I like the Iron warriors detachment, but i'm also considering just expanding out the warband via havocs, I think Havocs with multiple special weapons+objective secure, could be solid, e.g. 10 man squads with 4 meltaguns. Do yous think they'd need a Rhino in that setup? Losing the pregame move is a bit, crap. I have the models to play it either way, so it is just a matter of which is more workable. I don't think i'd go heavy weapons on WE havocs, better off with the Iron warriors in that case. 

 

I was sticking the sigil on my CSM lord as I saw others doing it, but 25pts for a 4++ is steep. Is it the done thing for a reason, or just players picking up an inv save for sake of it? Also, in regards to those Aspiring champs, do yous reckon if taking a melee weapon, sword, axe or fist? I don't really rate the power sword, but swinging at initiative and st5 on the charge makes it worthy of consideration imo. 

I wouldn't bother with the Rhino- as you say, it negates the main benefit of your decurion, which I think is a huge disadvantage and would be tactically very awkward. It could be argued on the IW ones since you can sit two with Autocannons inside the tank and still be pretty able to take out enemy transports, but definitely not for the WE ones.

The Sigil can be a decent buy and I do take if for some of my guys, but it does get expensive pretty quick. Thematically, I'm fine with not buying it because BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD, and mechanically you are probably throwing one of your chump sergeants at the mandatory challenge so that your other models can annihilate the enemy with their normal attacks. (That, incidentally, is why the champion has a power sword in the big unit.) I don't normally like Swords either, but when they are S5 they are a lot more valuable- though Lightning Claws are numerically the same or better against most targets, if you are willing to model them.

Honestly, I've regretted it every time I didn't pick up the Sigil. It's pricy, but not having it tends to really suck.

 

Maul would actually be my first choice if you're taking an upgraded Weapon for your Champions. The only thing the sword is better against is 3+Armour, and even then, not within all Toughness ranges.

I skip the Sigil pretty often on my Lords; it sometimes hurts not to have it, but I don't think it's mandatory. I normally like the Maul as a choice, but with Str 5 on the charge it actually loses a lot of its value and the Sword/Claws become more useful.

A few of other questions:

-How will superheavy/gargantuan units be handled? ITC has them give the enemy +1 to their Seize roll, as well as allowing the use of the Escalation warlord traits and being counted as "killing" a unit for every 3HP (or wounds) dealt to them. Are these changes in effect for the Ambassadorial in full, in part, or not at all?

-Does the Haemotrope Reactor affect only the plasma weapons listed in the BRB, any weapon with the plasma type listed in its entry, or all weapons described as plasma as described in their own text?

-When taking a multi-formation detachment (such as the Necron Decurion or Dark Angels Lion's Blade), do selections that are not formations count towards the detachment total? Apparently this was the case last year, but no mention of it is made in the current rules (which have several notable differences for army construction from the previous version.)

I don't think you really need a Cabal at all. It's good, but it's not a Librarius Conclave or anything.

You mentioned the Raptor Talon as an alternative, and if you want we can build from there- it's a solid formation that gives you options to either start on the board or Deep Strike in. Lost and the Damned, Favored of Chaos, Terminator Annihilation Force, and Cult of Destruction all have some possibilities as well, and an Armored Fist or Heldrake Terror Pack doesn't fit with the core theme of "gotta go fast" but does help you patch up some of the holes in the army and so could also be worth considering. It's also worth thinking about whether you want to include some additional units of Havocs or Bikes, since they are available in the core formation.

And yes, I think including at least one additional Lord (or Kharn) is a solid option for this army. You can get a very killy Khorne Lord for a pretty cheap price.

If you want to keep the Iron Warriors detachment you could definitely do a lot worse than them for tank-hunting duties; two solo Obliterators and then 2-3 units of guys with Autocannons is a very solid deal. Lascannons are far from bad, but with Melta already available in the Warband I would aim for something that is better-suited to wrecking light tanks such as Rhinos so your dudes can assault the guys inside them.

Maybe try something like this:

BUTCHERHORDE DETACHMENT (all models have VotLW where appropriate)

CHAOS WARBAND

1 Chaos Lord (MoK, Power Fist, Juggernaut, Talisman of Burning Blood) (160)

20 Chaos Space Marines (BP/CCW, 2 Flamers, MoK, Power Sword) (335)

10 Chaos Space Marines (BP/CCW, 2 Meltaguns, MoK, Meltabombs) (185)

5 Chosen (MoK, 2 Meltaguns) (120)

3 Chaos Bikes (MoK, 2 Meltaguns) (100)

5 Havocs (MoK, 4 Flamers) (105)

RAPTOR TALON

1 Chaos Lord (free Jump Pack, Axe of Blind Fury, MoK) (110)

5 Raptors (2 Meltaguns) (125)

5 Raptors (2 Meltaguns) (125)

5 Warp Talons (MoK) (180)

IRON WARRIORS COMBINED ARMS

1 Sorcerer (60)

1 Obliterator (70)

1 Obliterator (70)

5 Havocs (4 Autocannons) (115)

5 Havocs (4 Autocannons) (115)

Unfortunately that's still 1975pts if my calculations are correct, so you need to make some cuts. You could cut the IW entirely and just add them in as additional Khorne units; you could also trim the Warp Talons down to regular Raptors (though I like having that unit of AP3 assaulting out of deep strike.) There's also potentially room to cut some of the special weapons or extra bodies in the Khorne units in order to fit into 1850pts, since you have rather a large number of Melta and Flamer weapons available to you.

(The "Sorcerer" in the IW detachment would probably be one of the Khorne units from Age of Sigmar that can perform various warp-spawned miracles without the use of magic. For fluff reasons.)

Sure, I'm not saying that the Chaos Warband is bad; in fact, it's likely better than the Plague Colony overall. But -1 Toughness is a pretty big debuff; it can, for example, allow you to Instant Death T6 models and T5 models much more easily via a Power Fist and allows you to trigger the reroll on their poisoned weapons against all enemy MEQs. It does some pretty unique stuff that shouldn't be underestimated, even if it's probably not tournament-worthy at the end of the day.

Heck, if all you want is the FNP and Relentless, there's no need to even go for the Warband- just take a CAD so you have access to all of the cool Forge World toys and aren't forced to take those overpriced Bikes/Raptors.

If I were suggesting improvements to the list personally, I think the first thing I would change is the Iron Warriors CAD. It's not really adding a lot, nor is it giving you anything that your existing units don't already have- it's just a slightly different anti-tank at a longer range (and you're not even using Oblits as troops, which seems like an obvious pick given what you seemed to be aiming for.)

The Chaos Warband is a fairly decent formation, but I'm not really sure you're getting good mileage out of it given the fact that you're trying to cram it together with the Maelstrom. I would say that go with either one or the other- two core detachments is a very ambitious choice and prohibits you from doing much else with the army or even taking full advantage of either Core detachment.

The Butcherhorde's bonus is potentially really strong, especially in combination with Talisman, but you still need to be conscious of what your units are and what they can do. If you're pushing an aggressive strategy (which World Eaters really should be doing), you need to make sure your units have the tools to take on different types of enemy threats. What happens if you run up against an enemy walker or monstrous creature? You have some Meltaguns, but they are unlikely to be able to take down a Knight that is played well, much less several of them.