Order of Opperations for modifiers and borrowed stats?

[Guest]

Okay, Dark Apostle has unmodified Leadership 9. Chaos Space Marines have unmodified Leadership 8 (7 if the squad leader dies). 

The Black Legion's Legion Trait grants +1 Leadership. 

An unmarked squad of Chaos Space Marines can include an Icon of Vengeance which adds +1 leadership to the squad. 

A Dark Apostle has an ability which allows nearby units to use his Leadership score instead of their own.

A Warlord Dark Apostle with the Inspiring Presence Warlord Trait grants +1 leadership to units with 6" (which includes himself).

...

So, how does this resolve together? A Warlord Black Legion Dark Apostle with the Inspiring Presence Warlord Trait and a Squad of CSM within 6" with an Icon of Vengeance...what order is the math applied? 

[Guest]

Would be so simple if stats were capped at 10, like previous editions. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

IoV modifies squads leadership, not DA leadership. 

DA is at 11

CSM is at 10 on their own, 11 within 6 of DA, either cuz of his +1 OR cuz of his Shared Leadership. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

IoV modifies squads leadership, not DA leadership. 

DA is at 11

CSM is at 10 on their own, 11 within 6 of DA, either cuz of his +1 OR cuz of his Shared Leadership. 

So, then you are applying bonuses to units BEFORE fixed value changes? Can you back that up with a rules reference? This is an order of operations question, after all. 

Another way to apply this would be to share the 9 unmodified leadership with the unit, then apply any bonuses. This results in the CSM unit have leadership 12 (11 if they lose their squad leader).

Alternatively, we could apply the like bonuses, then share the leadership, then apply the bonuses that aren't alike. So Black legion and Warlord trait to both units, then share leadership, and then apply the squad's icon bonus, since the DA doesn't have that bonus. Doing it this way also results in 12 leadership for the CSM squad.

Or, and this is the most iffy one, you could appy all the bonuses to the DA, then share his leadership, then apply the bonuses to the CSM squad. This grants the CSM 14 leadership. 

You could also grant the CSM leadership based on the unmodified DA leadership, and just not apply the bonuses (since you'd argue that they only apply when using the unit's leadership). So they'd be 11 without the DA and 9 with the DA. 

[Guest]

Oh, just a note, the Black Legion Trait and the Icon of Vengeance, both add +1 leadership to models in their units. The Inspiring Presence and the DA leadership sharing ability both apply to units, not models. 

Additionally, the DA leadership sharing ability only applies in the Moral Phase, while the others are all static bonuses. 

Dunno if either of these matter for your math. 

[InfestedKerrigan]

You can't get 12. You are adding their flag to his leadership. It says it increases their leadership, not his. He says they use his leadership for tests instead of their own. The flag is still increasing their leadership. You have to decide if you are using their leadership or using his leadership when rolling. 

Follow?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

You can't get 12. You are adding their flag to his leadership. It says it increases their leadership, not his. He says they use his leadership for tests instead of their own. The flag is still increasing their leadership. You have to decide if you are using their leadership or using his leadership when rolling. 

Follow?

But when they use his leadership for theirs, does it not become their leadership while they are in range? I don't mind being wrong here, just want to understand *how* I'm wrong. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Where are you getting Inspiring Presence as a warlord trait?

[peter.cosgrove]

Ok. giving the CSM dudes the icon of vengeance is pointless. You would have to give it to the Dark Apostle for the +1 from the icon, Then the black legion trait, for +1, then the BRB Inspiring leader for the +1, giving the DA 12 leadership, which the CSM would then use.

The +1 for the icon for the CSM would be pointless because it applies to the unit first. Then other units apply second. So even if the CSM get 8 plus the icon +1 for 9, plus the BL trait +1 for 10, then the +1 for Inspiring Leader for 11, All that would be replaced by the DA's 12 IF the DA had the icon of vengeance, otherwise it's even either way, because the DA's 11 is the same as the CSM 11.

So, give the DA the icon, which you can do, then add all that other stuff, boost him to 12 and run a metric buttload of cultists which will then have 12 leadership. Which is kind of the point of the DA anyway.

[peter.cosgrove]

So, to answer your question. The unit applies all of it's bonuses first, Then any bonuses from other units. Since the DA replaces the leadership instead of adding to, then the CSM don't need the icon in order to get 12 leadership

[peter.cosgrove]

7 hours ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

You can't get 12. You are adding their flag to his leadership. It says it increases their leadership, not his. He says they use his leadership for tests instead of their own. The flag is still increasing their leadership. You have to decide if you are using their leadership or using his leadership when rolling. 

Follow?

You can get to 12.

DA is base 9. If you give the DA the icon of vengeance, that's 10, Plus the black legion trait for 11, Plus the inspiring leader from BRB for 12. Because the warlord IS a friendly unit within 6". 

[InfestedKerrigan]

Did you bother looking at the unit entries? Clearly not, the DA can't take the icon. 

 

Ergo....

[Guest]

1 hour ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Where are you getting Inspiring Presence as a warlord trait?

In the basic rulebook, it gives 3 basic warlord traits which any warlord can take, while the ones in the CSM book are specific to CSM characters. Inspiring Presence is one such rulebook warlord trait. 

38 minutes ago, InfestedKerrigan said:

Did you bother looking at the unit entries? Clearly not, the DA can't take the icon. 

 

Ergo....

Yeah, there's no option for an Icon of Vengeance on the Dark Apostle. And I'm not suggesting it applies to him. The CSM can take it (as in CSM the unit entry, not CSM the army), but it would only apply to models in their unit. It's just another variable so as to clarify that order of opperations. 

IK, you never did answer, do you have a rules basis for your order of operations that you suggested? Trying to figure out if it is opinion or based on printed rules. I value your opinion, but I want to be able to justify myself if/when this comes up in a normal game. I can't just direct all rules disputes to some guy that I met online....it doesn't fly, or I'd do that. 

[Guest]

And 12 isn't impossible to get, it's just a matter of double checking my order of opperations with borrowed stats and bonuses. 

A Black Legion Daemon Prince can take the Inspiring Presence Warlord trait and have leadership 12 without complicating things. But that doesn't answer my question regarding the order of appling things. 

[peter.cosgrove]

ya. I just noticed that HQ's can't take an Icon. Which is.. stupid. Khorne Characters can't take an Icon of Wrath, giving them a chance to reroll their charge distance.

 

[peter.cosgrove]

you apply the bonuses to your unit first before adding any bonuses from other units.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, peter.cosgrove said:

ya. I just noticed that HQ's can't take an Icon. Which is.. stupid. Khorne Characters can't take an Icon of Wrath, giving them a chance to reroll their charge distance.

 

There's a Khorne Artefact that does grant that, so they aren't without the option. And it's better, though it prevents them from taking another artefact. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Ok. if a unit takes an icon of vengeance, it does so at roster creation. So the leadership for each model is changed before the beginning of the game.

The detachment trait for the Black Legion is also applied at the beginning of the game.

The warlord trait adds 1 to the model, and adds one to the units within 6".

The leadership exchange for the DA is an absolute. The units leadership no longer applies.

So only the DA's leadership has a value when making a swap.

[Guest]

 

2 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Ok. if a unit takes an icon of vengeance, it does so at roster creation. So the leadership for each model is changed before the beginning of the game.

The detachment trait for the Black Legion is also applied at the beginning of the game.

The warlord trait adds 1 to the model, and adds one to the units within 6".

The leadership exchange for the DA is an absolute. The units leadership no longer applies.

So only the DA's leadership has a value when making a swap.

Check out page 13 of the free rulebook. Sidebar on the far right. To determine a model's "Current" characteristic, we apply fixed values first, then multiplication, then addition.

There's no difference, in rules, if the bonuses are applied at the start of the game, before the begining, or just during a phase, the "current" characteristic is based on the present total. 

So that CSM unit has leadership 8+1+1, or a current leadership of 10 with just the Icon and the Legion Trait (11 if in range of that Warlord Trait). 

My question is if using the DA's leadership means we apply the DA's leadership as a fixed value instead of the CSM's leadership 8. And if so, do we use the DA's current leadership. And if not, why not? The rules really don't cover swapping stats well. 

And, as an aside, the use of the DA's leadership is optional for the squad. They "can" use his leadership, they don't have to. 

[peter.cosgrove]

no. you would apply the DA's current leadership as a fixed value instead of the CSM's current leadership of 10. not 8

If you give the icon to the CSM squad it would equal the DA's leadership.

In this particular instance there aren't any multipliers. That particular example applies to cases where you have Sx2 effects then apply a +1 to Str effect.

You aren't going to be able to get a situation where  you get leadership 11 +1 +1. If the leadership of the DA is 11, then that's the final value. No more adjustments.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

no. you would apply the DA's current leadership as a fixed value instead of the CSM's current leadership of 10. not 8

If you give the icon to the CSM squad it would equal the DA's leadership.

In this particular instance there aren't any multipliers. That particular example applies to cases where you have Sx2 effects then apply a +1 to Str effect.

You aren't going to be able to get a situation where  you get leadership 11 +1 +1. If the leadership of the DA is 11, then that's the final value. No more adjustments.

That's just it, if I apply the DA's current leadership as a fixed value, then according to the rules, the bonuses should apply after that. Doesn't sound intended, but I'm trying to find the rules reason that it doesn't work like this. I like following the rules.

Mind you, it may be intended to function like this. The DA's leadership sharing ability only applies during the Moral Phase, so even if it allows for Leadership 13 (which sounds like a very black legion fluffy number by the way), it would only matter in rare instances. 

Though as an aside, I have no idea how you got the 11+1+1. Sounds like bad math. I really wish 13 was a number I could make here, but that isn't it. 

[peter.cosgrove]

no.. whatever the DA's leadership is, IS the final value. no more adjustments. Because the current stats for both the CSM and the DA are calculated to their current levels, THEN the swap happens. You can't say ok I am just going to calculate the current level for the DA, then swap, and THEN calculate the current level for the CSM. The stats are calculated instantly before the swap occurs and it's calculated for both units at the same time. 

[peter.cosgrove]

1 hour ago, paxmiles said:

Though as an aside, I have no idea how you got the 11+1+1. 

DA is base 9, Black legion is 10, Warlord trait is 11. What you are trying to do is figure out how to swap the DA's leadership of 11 to the CSM squad and THEN give the CSM squad the +1 for Black Legion, and the +1 for the Inspiring Leader warlord trait and the +1 for the Icon of Vengeance. for 14 leadership.

 

[Guest]

Just now, peter.cosgrove said:

DA is base 9, Black legion is 10, Warlord trait is 11.

But if the DA is within 6" of the CSM to share leadership, then the Warlord Trait also applies to those CSM (since it also applies to friendlies within 6"). So it would be 11+1+1+1=14. 

I did purposely pick an extreme example (extremes are good for examples). Though when I posted originally, I didn't realise that the DA's ability only functioned in the Moral Phase, so honestly even 14 leadership isn't broken if it only applies in that phase. Not many CSM units have enough models for it to matter. Even with 11, I'd need to lose 6 models before it mattered. 

And Black Legion does have a special character (Abaddon) that grants auto-passing moral checks to friendly CSM within 12", so it really isn't that impressive to have a 100 or 1,000 leadership for black legion within 6" during the Moral Phase only. 

[peter.cosgrove]

Sadly, abaddon works best just walking him across the field in a sea of cultists and heavy weapons. Lots of heavy weapons. Think 24 missile launchers and work your way up from there. Hitting on 4's, re-rolling 1's.