Knights Ludis

[VonVilkee]

Seeing as Dalmer is getting ready to do a big apoc game I thought I would explore using the following rules to have some variety with the models I have that could be knights or Warhound Scout Titans. Based on the amount of extra gubbins I have I like these much better for power level (hopefully right in line with knights and less than Warhounds).

 

I'm making a new topic just to get them out there for peeps to look at I will be organizing this in multiple posts in order to allow for easier quoting and criticism.

 

First the base detachment up to 4 Knights (chosen from below) period nothing fancy no rerolls or command benefits. Specials are built into the models.

 

The idea is that these are patterned more after gladiator houses and not knight houses hence the focused versions.

 

All of my knights follow either the paladin/errant or the lancer chassis. the initiate just allows different weapons, while the other three do pick up a minor rule.

 

All Armor 13/12/12 and come with two heavy stubbers

 

375 Initiate WS4 BS4 S10 I4 A3 HP6

choice of any 2 weapons, Super Heavy Walker (knight), Ion Shield (4++ to a single facing chosen at beginning of enemy shooting phase standard Knight rule)

 

390 Duelist WS4 BS4 S10 I4 A3 HP6

must take two CCW, Super Heavy Walker, Flank Speed (run 3d6 lancer rule), Ion Deflector (partial rule from lancer as Ion Shield however can not protect rear facing).

 

390 Punisher WS4 BS4 S10 I4 A2 HP6

Must take 2 ranged weapons, Super Heavy Walker, Ion Shield, Accurate (reroll 1's to hit, if using a blast weapon reroll distance if roll is 10 or more before BS modification)

 

400 Doctore WS4 BS4 S10 I4 A4 HP6 (requires a Duelist and Punisher in force to take)

any two weapons, Super Heavy Walker, Ion Shield, both weapons are master crafted

 

[VonVilkee]

Ranged weapons: edited 8/22/2014 5:45 PM V1.1F (Fluger has great ideas!)

 

Thermal Cannon: R36" S9 AP1 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Melta (this is on the errant currently)

 

Rapid Laser Destructor: R60" S9 AP2 Primary 3 removed blast unnecessary, hesitant to go S10 as a primary gets rerolls to armor pen...

 

Rapid Fire Battle Cannon: R72" S8 AP3 Ordinance 2, Large Blast (this is on the paladin currently)

 

Rapid Fire Earth Shaker: R48"-120" S9 AP3 Ordinance 2, Scorched Earth (this is a barrage mechanic be aware that within 36" it needs line of sight and can't reduce by BS) increase minimum range so in apoc it is good and in regular games it suffers from most things being inside min range

 

Rotary Autocannon: R60" S8 AP3 Primary 8 took a little of what Fluger said and combined with my vision, kept shot number, upped S, improved AP, and removed unnecessary rule, with Primary Weapon and number of shots I want it to be able to threaten armor 14. increased range a bit assault cannons are not super long ranged, split the difference.

 

Plasma Blaster: Two fire modes Added 12" of range to each fire mode

Rapid:R48" S7 AP2 Heavy 2, Large Blast

Overload: R60" S8 AP2 Primary 1, Massive Blast, Power Sacrifice

 

Now for the added Special rules: Yay cut new rules down to two!

Scorched Earth: fire all shots from a model with this rule following either the multiple barrage or Apoc Barrage rules, may choose each time the model fires)

Power Sacrifice: After resolving attack, fireing model suffers an automatic S1 Haywire hit no Ion save

[VonVilkee]

Close Combat Weapons: edited 8/22/2014 5:55 PM ISH V 1.1F (taking more of the feedback!)

 

Reaper Chainsword: SD AP2 Melee (current knight weapons of which I have a single one)

 

Scythe: S9 AP1 Melee, Specialist, Rampage, (special rule that gives more attacks per wound inflicted), Instant Death lets use more of the book rules like Fluger suggested. The arm for this is a little flimsy so I don't see S10 personally and I want more difference between this and the sword

 

Crazy thought for the scythe: two attack modes one basic number S10 +rampage and Instant death like above without the extra attacks for wounds, and the second an option to replace the number of stat line attacks with a number equal to the engaged models at the time? That could be stupid strong but represents scything through stuff...only halfish would hit maybe stomps at -1 too in exchange?

 

Power Sword & Titan Buckler: S10 AP2 Melee, Primary, Buckler

 

Mauler Claw: S10 AP2 Melee, Specialist, Energy Bracer, Ground Pound basic stats change removal of cluttering rules, really liked Fluger's idea of extra stomps see special rule below

 

And the Special Rules!

Buckler: 6+ invulnerable in CC only, Super heavy vehicles and Gargantuan creatures suffer -1 to hit in CC (note the -1 bit of this rule is from the lancer)

Energy Bracer: 5+ Close Combat Invuln doesn't need to be fancy due to the increased damage output

Ground Pound: May choose to add +1 per weapon with this rule to number of stomps, declare before rolling, after resolving stomps model takes a S1 Haywire hit if it works for plasma it could work here, gave the option to skip and gave a reason to have 2

[VonVilkee]

This spot will be reserved for the Chaos Stuff I wrote up I don't want to use it but I wanted these to be a generic type template that could work for a lot of things...

 

If there is interest I can type them out later; I have changes to Ion Shield, Marks, and 2 weapons per god.

 

Chaos Time! Edit 8/22/2014 about 6:20 PM V0.5

 

All become daemon engines (count as Chaos Space Marines for ally Matrix), lose the Ion Shield or Deflector as appropriate, gain Daemon (5+ invuln all the time!) and gain It Will Not Die. Any can take a weapon of a god no mixing between gods, and may (does not have to) take a daemon of upgrade (points as for Daemon Princes) if daemon of must have at least one weapon of the corresponding god.

 

Clarifications foe Daemon of rules:

Khorne: S10 +1 functions as D

Tzeentch: No clarification needed

Nurgle: Slow and Purposeful is enforced

Slaanesh: None needed but remember Fleet allows single die reroll (Duelist could do 1, 2, or all 3)

 

Ran outta time! Got plans will do weapons later...

[fluger]

Should be ordnance not ordinance, unless you are trying to change city policy.  

 

Firing not Fireing.

 

 

Ranged weapons:

 

Thermal Cannon: R36" S9 AP1 Heavy 1, Large Blast, Melta (this is on the errant currently)

 

Rapid Laser Destructor: R60" S9 AP2 Primary 3, Small Blast

 

I see what you're going for here, but I think it shouldn't be blast.  Maybe go up to S10?

 

Rapid Fire Battle Cannon: R72" S8 AP3 Ordinance 2, Large Blast (this is on the paladin currently)

 

Rapid Fire Earth Shaker: R36"-120" S9 AP3 Ordinance 2, Scorched Earth (this is a barrage mechanic be aware that within 36" it needs line of sight and can't reduce by BS)

 

Makes sense, relatively, but why ever take the battlecannon version if you have this one?  Points should reflect it.

 

Rotary Autocannon: R48" S7 AP4 Primary 8 (typing this out I'm thinking 6, but the Vulcan mega bolter is 15 shots so yeah...), Devastating

 

I'd bump this up to 10 shots and AP3, but drop the Devastating rule.  Also, up the range to 72, like the Hydra autocannon.

 

Plasma Blaster: Two fire modes

Rapid:R36" S7 AP2 Heavy 2, Large Blast

Overload: R48" S8 AP2 Primary 1, Massive Blast, Power Sacrifice

 

I think the range should be higher on both, otherwise I like it.  

 

Now for the added Special rules:

Scorched Earth: fire all shots from a model with this rule following either the multiple barrage or Apoc Barrage rules, may choose each time the model fires)

Devastating: Rending but on 5+

Power Sacrifice: After resolving attack, fireing model suffers an automatic S1 Haywire hit no Ion save

[intrizic]

Corey generally posts from his phone, auto correct for those special aah crap moments, amirightorwhat?  so please forgive his spelling mistakes.  Mine on the other hand, purely mind going faster than the fingers and all the butterflies and kittens in my brain.

 

An open secret about event organizers is that they sometimes volunteer for the job so they can fiddle with stuff :), this is Corey's fiddle.  I am willing to play to this tune, especially in an Apoc game, especially in an Apoc game that could be a thing.  Sounds like something worth investing in.

[fluger]

Close Combat Weapons

 

Reaper Chainsword: SD AP2 Melee (current knight weapons of which I have a single one)

Scythe: S8 AP1 Melee, Specialist, Sever Thread, Reaper

 

I'll write my thoughts on Sever Thread and Reaper below, but I really think all weapons should be S10 on this thing.  

 

Power Sword & Titan Buckler: S10 AP2 Melee, Primary, Buckler

 

Looks fine.

 

Mauler Claw: S6 AP3 Melee, Specialist, Shred, Devastating, Sever Thread, Energy Bracer

 

Up it to S10/AP2 and instead of the special rules there, how 'bout a +1 to the stomp attacks per claw?  

 

And the Special Rules!

Sever Thread: Immediately when a multi-wound model suffers a wound with this rule roll a die on a 4+ remove it from play

 

I see what you're going for here with Force but not Force.  IMO, for balance/diversity, I'd grant this to the power sword instead.

 

Reaper: +D6 Attacks (If using it as an additional CCW only provides +1 attack as normal remember specialist)

 

I'd go with it granting Rampage and then for every unsaved wound caused gets an additional attack (doesn't stack).

 

Buckler: 6+ invulnerable in CC only, Super heavy vehicles and Gargantuan creatures suffer -1 to hit in CC

Seems fine, I think this is what is on the lancer, right?  

 

Devastating: as Above (rending on 5+)

Energy Bracer: +2 to CC Invulnerable Save (5+ if none to start. combined with Buckler this would be a 4+, or if doubled up it would be 3+)

 

Curious, can a model get both this AND the Ion shield?  Having a 4++ vs shooting and a potential 3++ in melee is a bit too strong IMO.  

[VonVilkee]

Hey loren, how would you equip them based on rules as written? This could help me tone down the too good! ;)

 

On the posting from phone you're right used the laptop for all the typing caught some typos but not all...site there will be more editing before it is through.

 

@fluger the sword and buckler are combined so I don't really want to bump up. Part of the reason for the low strengths are for more flavor, I feel that if I bump up strengths than rules would need to be dropped. These were written under sixth when smash was amazing... Could prolly revisit the cc invulns good catch!

 

The 3++ could still have an ion shield (Doctore, initiate) but would remove ranged threat and only be strength 6...

 

On the rapid die earth shaker I took into account the new indirect fire rules remember your problems with the basalisks? This would have the same issues...but need it on the table to really figure it out.

 

Final note the chaos versions were going to use the deamon of rules so khorne would be plus one strength with ten going to D. Yay chaos being better at something! I'll get the chaos stuff up tonight so you can see the Web of interactions.

 

Love the helpful feed back!

[intrizic]

aah [big bad swear word] you want me to read and analyze....ok.

[fluger]

@fluger the sword and buckler are combined so I don't really want to bump up. Part of the reason for the low strengths are for more flavor, I feel that if I bump up strengths than rules would need to be dropped. These were written under sixth when smash was amazing... Could prolly revisit the cc invulns good catch!

 

I can see that this was written when smash was a thing, but as it stands, it just doesn't make sense to me that a big weapon like that would hit at less than a 10.  

 

The 3++ could still have an ion shield (Doctore, initiate) but would remove ranged threat and only be strength 6...

 

With how deadly knights are in melee, and only more so with this, I just think this would be WAY too powerful.  Losing shooting is OK, but with how fast they move, it won't matter.  Turn 2 charges are almost guaranteed and not many armies have enough shooting to drop a knight in two turns (one turn if they are going second).  3++ on AV13 is too much IMO with how lethal this is, remember that stomp is a thing as well.  I really think it should be S10 as well.  

 

On the rapid die earth shaker I took into account the new indirect fire rules remember your problems with the basalisks? This would have the same issues...but need it on the table to really figure it out.

 

Well, see, then it is still functionally identical to the battlecannon within 36" in terms of shooting what it can see, and is at S9: andd substantially better over 36".  

 

Final note the chaos versions were going to use the deamon of rules so khorne would be plus one strength with ten going to D. Yay chaos being better at something! I'll get the chaos stuff up tonight so you can see the Web of interactions.

 

Love the helpful feed back!

[VonVilkee]

Earth shakers can't reduce by bs with in 36 so it isn't functionally the same and they have to fire as a barrage so one long scatter screws the whole thing... Few extra points is prolly good way to go.

 

I also see a fundamental thought difference, I like the idea of finesse weapons that rely on a few rules, not just brute strength. Also wanted to put those options in ideally you would ignore half the weapons as flimsy while I ignored the other half as too brutish!

[VonVilkee]

Odd thought what if the cc invuln from the bracers only applied to attacks that were st 10 or D? This would allow basic infantary their chance while protecting from the big stuff want to see him go toe to toe with occasionally.

[VonVilkee]

Made changes above, left horrible spelling cuz well I didn't care yet!

[fluger]

I love the changes.  Make sure the points makes sense though.  For instance, the rotary autocannon is significantly better than the battlecannon against certain targets, so price appropriately.  

[VonVilkee]

So if we go with an effectiveness factor of five points (errant to paladin gw knights) and we could go with the following

 

Ranged:

Thermal cannon: free (as the basis)

Rapid battle cannon: 5 pts (established difference)

Rapid earth shaker:10 pts (little better than battle cannon but not much due to increased minimum range)

Rapid laser destructor:15 pts (better at clearing tanks/monstrous creatures but worse at infantry)

Plasma blaster:20 pts (versatility tax?)

Rotary Autocannon: 30 pts (cuz awesome and it would be inline with terminator costing for awesome guns)

 

Just spit balling more than happy to go higher if these don't line up in you opinion let me know anyone if you have some feelings about this!

[fluger]

Try it at those points and see what's what.  Also, points for melee weapons?  

[VonVilkee]

Try it at those points and see what's what.  Also, points for melee weapons?

 

Been thinking about that...not sure any of them are that much better than the others... GW knights have the first one built in to the cost...

[VonVilkee]

Intrizic is giving me a chance to get these on the table! 2k battle I'm using a Doctore (Scythe and rotary Autocannon),a punisher (rapid laser destructor, Plasma blaster), and a duelist (dual mauler claws). No extra points cost for the melee options and used the increases for ranged weapons. Was able to afford a nice little ally detachment of space Marines, convenient! Librarian (possibly over spent at 145), a flexible command squad in a Pod, 10 Maines plasma combi and heavy Bolter in pod, 5 Bolter scouts in a storm, and a thunder fire cannon. I'm excited about the list and ready to try this thing!

[VonVilkee]

So basic thoughts after playing one game.

 

Play testing is hard

Knights in general are a thing

These changes seem to match regular knights well

We need allot more experience with knights in general.

Rampage is awesome! No need for extra attacks on that Scythe

Fluger rocks.

 

We decided no changes will be made for at least 5 games maybe 10. Generally happy with results and want to get a base line before further tweaking.

[VonVilkee]

Few pop in my head things to remember...

 

Possibility for more elegant rules.

 

Scythe wounds based on initiative (felt pretty powerful with instant death but D is better) prolly won't change justa thought cuz of grav weapons fancy rule...

 

Claws no option to change stomps always adds +1 per to number of stomps if stomps are greater than 3 suffer the haywire hit...