IW Raptors Posted November 13, 2016 Report Share Posted November 13, 2016 So I posted a while back about doing a Raptors battle company, still haven't got around to it! Have most of the infantry, but ended up playing the Talon Strike Force more. Anyways, I was considering borrowing all them lovely free transports and trying it out, but I kind of want to run an unusual battle company. I have no idea if this could work, so i'm hoping if it is just plain silly, someone will tell me now! Raven Guard Talon Strike Force Demi-Battle Company Chaplain 5 Tactical Marines5 Tactical Marines5 Tactical MarinesLandspeeder5 Devastator Marines 10th Company Task Force 5 Scouts 5 Scouts 5 Scouts Raptors Battle Company CaptainChaplain Command Squad (Razorback)Command Squad (Razorback) 5 Tactical Marines (Meltagun, Razorback)5 Tactical Marines (Meltagun, Razorback)5 Tactical Marines (Meltagun, Razorback)5 Tactical Marines (Meltagun, Razorback)5 Tactical Marines (Meltagun, Razorback)5 Tactical Marines (Razorback) 5 Assault Marines (Razorback)5 Assault Marines (Razorback) 5 Devastator Marines (Razorback)5 Devastator Marines (Razorback) 10th Company Task Force 5 Scouts 5 Scouts 5 Scouts 1850pts The TSF Chaplain is the warlord, so that gives a re-roll on the mission, table sides & deployment. The rest of the TSF plays objectives. The battle company is fairly straightforward, it scouts forward. If needs be, the army can null deploy, outflanking the battle company & something from the TSF comes on from reserve turn one. Aside from a handful of meltaguns, bolters & heavy bolters, the army can't put out much offense. Too one dimensional? Might be a bit boring to play after a while? FW could always update Raptors and take away scout, which would stink. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 13, 2016 Report Share Posted November 13, 2016 Looks bad. A marine infantry horde army with short range, just seems flawed. Plus, looks awful to paint, just so many models with the exact same loadout. I count 113 marines, plus 12 tanks and a speeder. This is also probably the most expensive way to play space marines... I don't really see the point in having free transports if it means having only a handful of models with any upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted November 14, 2016 Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 The Talon Strike Force can do a lot of really good stuff- I wrote an article about it (https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/02/the-pinion-demi-company-why-arent-you-using-it/) that you might find useful. Pax's assessment is harsh, but I don't think it's wholly off the mark- you're gonna struggle a lot if all you have is bodies. The Pinion Demi-Company synergizes much better with the TSF's innate bonuses than the standard Demi-Company does; while you'll be lacking Objective Secured, that isn't as critical as it's often made out to be. Several of the auxiliary options for the TSF are excellent choices to pair with it- obviously the Skyhammer is amazing, but the Shadowstrike Team is also very good and can catch people by surprise. Bringing along an additional Combined Arms for Lias Issodon (from Forge World) or an Inquisition detachment for the Servo-Skulls are both strong additions as well. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IW Raptors Posted November 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 I don't mind critiquing of the list at all! I'd rather know now, then later if it is junk. I have played against someone who used the horde battle company (naked or bare min squads for free transports) as opposed to min max White Scars, obviously very good at objectives, but has a few issues alright if the mission is not right or faces a hard counter. I have the models, bar the transports which I can get a loan of to test out a more typical battle company, Grav in Rhinos, las & plas Razorbacks etc. Like I said though, not sure if I want to go the cookie clutter route of your typical battle company. Thanks for the link Puppy, I really enjoy playing the Talon Strike Force as a fun semi competitive army, interesting to read another perspective about it as not many play the TSF. My full TSF list indeed has Lias, Inq with servo skulls, Coteaz and I am auditioning the auxiliary choices. Tricky to play with and against. I heard a talon strike force won battle for salvation recently. My wet 40k dream, is Forgeworld confirming that Raptors can use the TSF in a errata/FAQ, they have done so via email and said an update is coming, but I'm not holding my breath. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2016 Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 I don't usually use direct critisim like that, so I am sorry about how harsh it could appear. Doesn't sound like you were offended, but I figured I should clarify why I posted what I did. In the past, that sort of army is the kind kills 40k players, turning them into non-40k players. It's just an incredibly time consuming, costly list, which the end result is likely being unable to defeat most opponents and stuggling in most games. Players of this sort of list burn out on 40k very quickly, and then go on to complain about the cost of the game or unbalance of the rules. While I agree the rules are unbalanced and the game is costly, in this case, the list the player uses grants a false perspective. Regarding your list. First, you can win like that. Just overwhelming them with bodies moving towards assault. A Black Templars player would definitely benefit from this tactic, probably more. I would still sacrifice models so you can include at least melta bomb sergeants in every squad. I would also, strongly suggest playing while drinking beer. I just think an easy going attitude is required to enjoy this sort of list, as the goal, more or less, is to win the game by having too many models to kill all of before the game ends. If you can do this, you might want to look into tyranids or orks, as this sort of list is much more common with them. Anyway, suggestions. I'm not sure what the formation does for you, but seems like the list you already have would fit in a CAD and that would give you much more practical options. Not seeing what the demi-company brings to the table, for your list, as it seems like the focus is on bodies. Remeber, a 10-man squad can combat squad and they can still take a transport, so the stock CAD can easily have 18 scoring units without special characters. And I know raptors are your thing, but I'd really consider running them as black templars in rules for this sort of list. You are already not fielding psykers with your marines and for horde infantry armies, the BT troops Crusader squad is easily the better option. Let's you run 120 objective secured infantry models within a CAD (1,440pts for six 20-man crusader squads). BT also have the Crusader rule, which isn't huge, but it allows your marines to run a bit faster and make charges a bit more reliably (very handy for a horde army that is foot slogging). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IW Raptors Posted November 14, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 I'm completely fine with tearing a list apart whilst it is in the design process, why else post a list/idea if you don't want input?! I tend to like unusual ideas anyways and you can only do so much theory on your own. The jist of the idea behind this list, was that battle company, is really good at most objective missions, so much objective secure is just a pain to clear away. It doesn't really assault or shoot well, just stands on objectives at the right time. Although after facing the all heavy bolter free razorbacks, they do add up! One of the weaknesses of Battle company is kill point missions. The Talon strike force, which is the naked demi company & 10th, gives you a re-roll on the mission, table side and deployment before the game starts. It can also come on from reserves turn one. With the battle company having scout, it could outflank if going 2nd and null deploy the army, with something from the talon coming on 1st turn, or the entire army could start as normal and be faux white scars with scouting transports onto objectives. I thought it had some merits, but I can totally see your points. It is neither a fully committed Talon Strike force, or battle company. Funny enough, regarding model count, because I have a 40k marine army, and am starting a 30k legion, the body count did not worry me too much, bar the transports & some scouts! :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2016 Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 The jist of the idea behind this list, was that battle company, is really good at most objective missions, so much objective secure is just a pain to clear away. It doesn't really assault or shoot well, just stands on objectives at the right time. Although after facing the all heavy bolter free razorbacks, they do add up! One of the weaknesses of Battle company is kill point missions. They are only free if you would be taking those same models anyway. Just like savings from coupons. There's no savings if they cause you to buy things you don't want, don't need, or wouldn't normally buy. In terms of strengths, I see the main strength of the SM demi-company being that it makes your HQ, elites, fast, and heavy slot units into objective secured models. This is useful, but only if you aren't planning on going heavy on troops anyway. A Devastor squad, as above, with no heavy weapons, is basically a tactical squad. Those Assault squads too, are basically just more tactical marines. So, if the main plan is to field lots of basically bare tactical marines, I don't really see the advantage of the demi-company, I'd just run a CAD with min cost HQ and maxed out tactical marines. That army scouting turn 1 thing seems nifty, and could help, but I don't really see the advantage when it doesn't really solve your other issues (like in not really having much AT). Those "free" transports certainly aren't helping either. Personal suggestion is to design your list with the Combined Arms Detachment, then find the formation that best enhances the list you already have. Might need tweaks to get it to fit in the new formation, but seems to work better. Regarding your list, seems like you are too focused on the formation's needs for you to create a useful list for yourself. On subject with objective secured mass models, have you considered Pedro and his Imperial Fists (Crimson Fists)? Makes the sternguard objective secured, while leaving them elites. So you could take three units of sternguard, 6 tactical squads and pedro in a single CAD, and your only non-objective secured model is pedro. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Hanaur Posted November 14, 2016 Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 My brain was just not working. I kept looking at this for signs of heresy and Chaos infestation when I saw "Raptors" but found none. and I know it's here... Battle Companies are kinda crazy. Especially the version Todd Johannsen unlocked, with White Scars rhinos and Grav Cannons until the cows come home. Trying to overrun the enemy with sheer number of bodies is an interesting idea, but I don't know if Mariens do it well enough and from inside transports it seems lesss likely. the advantage to this approach though if one were looking for a strategy that would work, is that you CAN use this many bodies to essentially trap the enemy away from objectives and just use shooting on the enemies that can get past the blockade. while it is anything but artful, I learned a long time ago that Sisters of Battle function pretty well this way. In fact it is how I still do well with them. having said that i think that to perfect that strategy, you are going to have to really intentionally think that way from the word go every game and value positional dominance over other more orthodox ways of fighting. My two cents. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 14, 2016 Report Share Posted November 14, 2016 My brain was just not working. I kept looking at this for signs of heresy and Chaos infestation when I saw "Raptors" but found none. and I know it's here... On subject, IW Raptor, you might want to look into getting some librarians with malefic daemonology and actually summoning daemons to the battlefield. That would be a force multiplier, which, if done successfully, would make your forces able to contend with actual horde armies. I suggest trying to summon daemon psykers on turn 1 (pink horrors, hearlds, or possession), then focus on melee monsters for the later turns. Totally wrong from a fluff stance, but then I don't think most marine chapters forcus on superior numbers, so I think you are already on a slippery slop regarding marine doctorine. Quite honestly, your army keep reminding me of a Word Bearers force... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IW Raptors Posted November 15, 2016 Author Report Share Posted November 15, 2016 I don't think even I could subject myself or opponents to a battle company horde with summoning. I mean, it could probably work with the inherent strength of battle company free stuff and summoning, but can you imagine the length of the turns?! In response to LH, I've actually faced a tourney battle company dark angel list at 1500pts that did exactly that, just maxed out the free transports, a smattering of upgrades and used the sheer amount of bodies and hulls of transports to swamp objectives and block movement. Even after you wreck the transport, you have to deal with the surviving marines hiding behind wrecks. I'll go back to the drawing board and in the meantime continue to play the Talon Strike force. Thanks for everyone's help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.