Threejacks

Yeah,,we noticed that games with only 2 objectives(one in each deployement or side of the board) really lead to grind fests.In AoS,the Take and Hold scenario just has an objective on each table half and usually leads to a kill count fight,,it can be quite boring really.Of course this is the same in kill point only games.

  The ruleset seems to work best when there is at least 3 objectives in the game,helps to keep forces spread out and avoid the big scrum in the middle or in the case of 40k,the "shoot fest" game.

5 hours ago, Lord Hanaur said:

I got two more games in today.  First against Tau Empire, then against Space Marines.  I used my Dark Eldar in both contests and managed wins.

I learned a lot from these two games.  Stuff that hadn't come up before came up.  The big issue though was that both games took too long!  It's still plaguing us.

In the Tau Empire contest, it was two grizzled vets, and we both have been Tau players forever, so the familiarity with his army was very good for both of us.  Still took us four hours and my Dark Eldar list is perforce a little smaller than it was before.

We identified that the thing that was killing us was the "alternating melee" and also the very real impact of the elimination of Sweeping Advances AND the second combat phase you miss out on in this edition.

What I mean by that is that it is the logical choice for the Fire Warriors to fall out of melee when faced with the vastly superior Dark Eldar combatants.  Of course.  But that means that unlike in previous Editions, You are not only unable to sweeping advance the unit in the first place and end in the open (same result as falling back gives now) which would have eliminated units much faster, but you also then lose the second round of combat you would have gotten on the Tau Empires turn.  Morale isn't enough, we are finding, to really stop this kind of endless wading through things from happening.

The net result is that it took FOREVER to get to the inevitable conclusion of the game. 

Falling back and not being able to fire is good for the Tau, but not necessarily for the game itself.  The game devolved into him falling back, his few Crisis Teams/commanders firing on me.  Then I'd charge the Fire Warrior screens again (which really made his only real shooting after turn two into Overwatch), his survivors would fall back again and the few Crisis teams/leaders would shoot me.  Ultimately, it was like a death of one thousand paper cuts.  We stopped just short of the tabling as it seemed unnecessary between friends but we were a little frazzled by the time it took, as there were just so many more units alive so much longer deep into the game than there ever has been.

It's an interesting problem to solve for sure.  Anywho, 1:45 AM.  Probably need to sleep now.

 Ahh yes,,"The Grind" 40k style.

  Dont see the fall back stuff too much in AoS but pretty much the same outcome,just happens amongst the main force of face beaters in each army.

  Curious though,,what scenario were you playing?.Reason I ask is playing to the objectives should alleviate some of this effect in games,,were is just trying to kill the opponents army aggravates it.

Ebooks are up for DL,,but showing pending right now.

 Hop in the Que!
 

23 minutes ago, Optimus Stein said:

I am fine with any scenario that has a 3 round tournament on Saturday since I'll only be there for one day anyway.

Love your chosen name:)

  Its now looking like we wont have the player numbers needed to run a full 5 round ITC event over the two days as right now we are sitting at 7 attendees,though im close to certain for at least 2 more that will be making it.

  This puts us in good postition to do a 3 round ITC on Saturday though as we have been running these with 6-10 players since last fall and it works out pretty well.

    The other alternative is to back out of the ITC event status and just go with a Round Robin style event were we just play as many different players as we can over the two days.

   If we stick with the 3 round ITC on Saturday then we could,if players would like,,,do a 5 round escallating skirmish event on Sunday.The new Skirmish system is very easy to pick up and actually pretty fun to play with rounds taking usually no longer than an hour,the first rounds would likely be over closer to half an hour.In between rounds players would roll for new abilities gained and hire new warband members.
  I would need to work up some rules clarifications on a few things along with a scoring rubric to determine winners.Players could use their army from the day before or even bring a new army/warband just for this event,,though painting requirements will still be in place.

  I would probably start this event at 35 points instead of the rulebooks 25 point rule as some armies just cant get a hero and 2 other models at that lower value.

 Ill see if I can pop up a pol for this now:)

51 minutes ago, Lord Hanaur said:

There was a claim made in one of their pre-release announcements that 2K could be played in 2 hours.  I see in the book that it says 2-3 (a hedge) but it was announced at one point that this could happen before the book came out and I've seen no game go only 2 hours as they say it "could".  We're not even close to that it seems like.  I dont know too many that were regularly playing it at 1500 although obviously that isnt to say it shouldn't or cant be.  1850 was the ITC standard.  2K was the "fun standard around here when we weren't at tournaments.

That's kind of off the subject.  whether or not games are going more or less quickly for some, i am curious if anyone is doing some things to mitigate time in the general sense.

 

 

  2k is likely still going to be in the 2.5 hr round time frame,,of course some matchups and scenario combos will go faster,others will be even longer.

   What suprises me a bit about this issue is that GW seemed to keep the general outline for scenarios that they have been using for 7th and even part of 6th,,thus some of them even have the variable turn effect,possibly even going 7 turns.AoS has gone to a 5 round competative game across the board...this as a rule has made events manageble but still, at 2k points we really need to allocate 2.5 hrs per round.

  I rem about 18mos ago my oldest and I tried using a 7 th edition 40k scenario with tac objective cards with our 2k AoS lists(scrollbuilder points).He was using Bretonnian/SCE vs my Chaos mixed army..the game took like 5 hrs to complete lol.We ground down to just a few models each and Chaos squeaked out a win,if I rem correctly.Either way I can see why it may be taking longer now with the new AoSified system.Players will learn the system and it will speed up im sure.

3 hours ago, Ish said:

Is pewter ferrous? It's been forever since I've done much with a metal mini...

Non ferrous,,it's mostly just Tin?

First off I would like to say that I appreciate Sugarlesslamas comments on how he is resisting the negativity that is happening to 40k  based on his previous experience with the whfb to AoS changeover.

   I'm starting to see rather long threads on both FB and other forums about how the nu40k is bland and stripped of most all of its depth.The exact same thing was said about AoS during that transitions,as we all know.We can be asssured that this new version of the game is not going to be for everyone that has been playing the game in the most recent versions prior.Keep in mind though that the game engine transition/rebuild from whfb to AoS was far more drastic than what is happening to 40k right now so I ser iously doubt there will be some mass exodus from the game as a product like there was with whfb.

  Part of me is somewhat disappointed with some of the new changes,,even though I'm an avid AoSer and the game has fully been transitioned,I still miss things like vehicle facings.In exchange for the many simplifications,I think we will see the absence of hard counters as a whole along with the removal of many of the cheesy "super secret squirrel moves" that were often very annoying.Though in the long run,I wouldnt be surprised to see these things start creeping back both rulesets,,cuz money and all that.

    As for the future of this new rule set,,I firmly believe that they will be building it just as they have done with AoS,,that means new codecs with suf faction army special rules and abilities,,basically giving a reason to choose all those faction specific keywords over the base factions.Also points will be adjusted and rules tweaked on a much more consistent basis.So for those that don't mind a bit more random in their competitive play along with a more layer back approach overall,,the game is looking very bright:)

19 hours ago, Blustorm said:

Yep, 6 is the minimum amount of players needed for a 5 round event, round robin style. 32 is the minimum needed for a 5 round event, swiss style, which is why I mentioned that number in an earlier post. 

 We have been running our local events through the BCP system for ITC points since last fall and it seems to work fine for as few as 6 players,,though we only play 3 rounds.

  Would it be possble,if we have a much reduced turnout to go with a 3 round ITC event on Saturday then run something different on Sunday?..I can work up something for that:)

2 hours ago, deadwing34 said:

Wow that sucks we have sold less tickets than I thought, I thought the event had 40 tickets available.

Indeed,,if we are only sitting at 7 participants now,we are in danger of not having enough players to hold the event,,not sure what the minimum is this year but I believe last year it was 9 minimum.

4 hours ago, deadwing34 said:

Got my ticket and I am bringing a mixed Tzeentch force and no skyfire spam! I just got a Major loss and Minor loss as a recent tournament with my list so look out people haha!

How many total tickets are there for this event? Also do we know at this point what the start time is?

 I didnt do so hot yesterday either,,but my goal for an OFCC list is always one thats rather meh when it comes to win/losses but scores big in the fun to play catagorie

  Ask Mexican Ninja about how his Warboss lost a staring contest yesterday

Yeah,,gonna have to get me one of them Meka-dread things...

38 minutes ago, Andrewgeddon said:

Well, now I'm really hoping that a racoon shows up to the AoS event with a Chaos army.

If he does,,im sure not playing that shifty little fk.

 Pete,,not sure about the info you got from those guys regarding transports..but the rulebook description even states "when you set up a transport,units can start the battle within it instead of being set up separetaly-declare which units are being set up within the transports when you set up"

 Further,there is no such statement within the transport rules stating that the unit being transported is "removed from play",,,if there is would someone please show me were it says that.Now "removed from the battlefield" and " removed from play" are two different things,especially when considering that units mounted in some transports can shoot out of it in the shooting phase.

  So as far as I can see, there is not statement of "removed from play" for you to not understand:)

EIther way though,,its still very early,,actually the game is still on the shelf till next week,so yeah,,probably not worth getting into it too intensly at this point.

 Westrider is correct about the Transport thing:)

  The detatchement wording rules are certainly not very clear in more than just one area,AoS was the same way when Battalions were being released, they since have cleared it up with FaQs as they will need to do with 40k.My general take on the 40k version is that if you choose a (sub) faction keyword in order to obtain an ability or benifit ,as in being able to take a unit as a troop choice,,then all of the other dataslates in that detatchment need to have that chosen keyword.

   This will probably be more clear once we start seeing more sub-faction benifits/abilities as new codexes are released,,the problem now is that the rules seem to imply that we need to follow the specific keywords chosen but dont have much of a reason to in most cases.

6 hours ago, Spaceork said:

I'm still going to have to wait to the last minute to buy tickets due to housing and a unfortunate incident with a raccoon. Hopefully there will still be tickets the first week of July.

 Should be no problem with that:)

Ive been married for just shy of the last 30 years of my life and no army of any miniatures game  makes me cringe more than the thought of having to face a horde of weaponized women.

 Sorry but this isint just wrong,,is downright mean.

No responce as yet,,but after looking over the warscroll,,I would call it adding models back into an existing unit and thus resummoning the crew would not cost reserve points.Keep in mind though that players can choose to shoot either the warmachine or the crew,,that is something they clarified as well.

  One person over there did respond and their take is the same as mine.This is a bit of a unique situation as the warscroll ability that allows replenishment is in fact a summons of sorts(requiring a Wizard) instead of a particular model that is part of the warscroll.

  I just checked out the warscroll and I see what you are getting at..

 Ill check over at TGA and see if its been addressed:)

2 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I feel I'm getting more confused with this answer to my "is it free to summon the crew for an existing Screaming Skull Catapult" question. Says yes it is free, but then goes on to say they would have to pay... Perhaps you should look up the Screaming Skull Catapult in that free Tomb Kings PDF.

  Sorry bout that,,thought you were refering directly to summoning..

   You can only "bring back" models to a unit by a specific warscroll ability that allows it.In the case of Skellies,you have the banner bearer that allows it,,no points needed for that.
 

  The Skull catapult doesnt have such an ability..

  There are many other situations were a unit is killed but not removed from the board and allowed to be "brought back" many of these cases still require points to be payed to bring the entire unit back and have been covered(mostly) by FaQ.

1 hour ago, PourSpelur said:

So on deployment, does it go:

I place Rhino, you place something, I "deploy" a Tac squad into Rhino, you place something etc...

Or

I place Rhino with Tac squad inside, you place something etc...

Yup,,units loaded into transports all count as one drop.So 10 leaders all loaded into one Rhino is one drop.Finish deploying first and go first(assuming its not stolen from you)..this will become more of a big deal as the meta forms.

 Wouldnt be surprised if we start seeing army specific formations with the ability to all drop at once on deployement.

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

So then summoning a replacment crew for a catapult would be free, since the unit includes the catapult?

Yes,,but you would of course have to pay the whole price for the machine and crew assuming they have only one point profile between them.

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Back tracking a bit. When summoning, how is cost determined for partial units? And do you pay when non-spells return or add models into the game? What about healing, do you pay for that?

For example, the Standard Bearer in most undead units returns 1d6 models each turn to that unit. Neferata, Monarch of Blood creates Vampire Lords each time she defeats Hero models with her weapons. And Screaming Skull Catapults have a spell to summon just the crew to an existing catapult with no crew. How are points worked out for these things?

  Units are summoned with the minimum size(unless stated otherwise on the spell) then payed for in incriments of their minimum size..partial units cost the full price of the mimimum size.

  Models returned to units already in play do not cost points.

Sheese,,GW cant win..

 AoS releases with no point system..gets slammed

  nu40k releases with TOO MANY point systems--gets slammed!

 j/k

  Power level will most certainly be for new players or those just wanting to throw down a quick match at home.

 Though as ive mentioned,If I could get a few interested I wouldnt mind putting together an event that used powerlevels and battlezone rules.Something to change it up a bit:)

On ‎6‎/‎7‎/‎2017 at 3:36 PM, paxmiles said:

Hmm so if my army on the table lacks skeleton warriors, and I decide I need some, then any Death Wizard in my army can cast that spell, despite there being no skeleton warriors in my army to give them that spell?

Prior to the General's Handbook, you had to have the unit in your army at the start, in order to summon it, or at least that was how it was explained to me. 

  Yeah it has been faq`d,,and I rem when you were playing a year or so ago that we were actually playing it were you had to have a warscroll of the summoned models already in your army.That was the prevailing interpretation at the time.

  They did a big clarification on the runup to the Generals Handbook release.