SPaceORK

I really wanna know points here! If they are like 40ish points for basic dudes they will be super fun. Lots of dudes in glittery armor! But I'm guessing it's closer to 60 and they will be gimped by points like sm termies.

14 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Remember that deepstriking Bloodletters without summoning them requires a Stratagem (Denizens of the Warp). More so, recall that the stratagem's cost is based on the power level of the deepstriking unit. 30 bloodletters are PL 12, so it's 2 CP to deep strike them. 

Regarding 3d6 rerollable charges, that is not a Bloodletter ability.

The Bloodletter instrument grants them +1" to charges for +10pts.

There is a 2 CP Stratagem (Banner of Blood) which can upgrade an exist Daemonic Icon (+15pts) to grant a 3d6" charge once per battle.

As for re-rolling charges, a Khorne daemon(Faction) Detachment grants rerolls of charges to KHORNE DAEMONS within 6" of a CHARACTER from. So if you also had a khorne daemon character within 6" of the deepstriking bloodletter unit, you could deep strike them.

So it could be done as you say, but the CP cost is very high. Summoning is cheap by comparison.

Yes... I know this. But just because it takes 3cp to almost guarantee 30 bloodletters are deep in the soft underbelly of the opposing army vrs getting shot to pieces by summoning them, that 3cp seems like a better use of resources.

Plaguebearers seem solid. 5++/5+++ and a -1 to hit with units 20+. With a little support Plaguebearers can hit like a truck and move quickly for Nurgle (7' move, 2dmg, rerolls, etc). I love em!

Nurglings are awesome simply for the disruption and cheap cost. They deploy up to 9" away from the enemy deployment zone, not enemy models. With the new hq targeting rules this means you can hide them deep in the enemies zone out of line of site and keep your hq's safe.

Brimstones from the demon codex are ok. 6++ and 3 points makes them the cheapest option for troops. But that's about all they have. The CSM brimstones still have a 4++ save at 3points so until they get FAQ-ed they are better.

Pinks are ok. In groups if 20+ they have assault 3 guns which can be very nice. 

Blues are... Well pinks shoot and brims are 3pnts so blues being melee in a shooting flaming army is just kinda meh.

Demonettes are just ok as well. Bloodletters seem to be better at what demonettes are supposed to do.

So for a semi competitive environment, bloodletters deepstriking, nurglings hiding and disrupting, Plaguebearers hording up and being hard to remove, and brims being dirt cheap seem to be the way to go.

Or... Don't use summoning cause it incredibly restrictive. Maybe you roll high enough for something useful? Maybe not. And if ya do summon something it's gotta be more 9" away from the enemy AND 12" inches from the summoner. That's a pretty big area on denial.

Better to just deepstrike a 30 man bloodletter squad. That's like 90+ attacks at 6/-3/1 with 3d6 rerollable charges.

But what are people using for troops? CSM brimstones still have a 4++, so that's cool. Bloodletters, pinks, nurglings, Plaguebearers are all playable.

7 hours ago, happycamper said:

Wonder what the minimum model count for JetBike unit is.... hope it’s 1

Outrider detachment with 4 bikes would be great addition to any imperial force

Saw that it was three somewhere. They are also selling them 3 for £60.

If you can, try the list I had premade. Biggs, rookie X-wing and the other guy.

Basically you hide in asteroids because you don't take damage from them with the large ship. Then shoot the bad guys with ion cannons and laugh as they crash into asteroids. Or fly of the map.

It's cheesy but not that great.

16 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Even with just stuff found in the codex, it could be horrifying. For example, I have two 340pt bloodthristers. You kill one in the shooting phase. I use the stratagem. You kill another 340pt bloodthirster in the assault phase. I use the stratagem. At the end of my next movement phase, I deep strike 680pts of bloodthirsters onto the table. Only 4 command points...

I wouldn't be surprised if ITC mods this one to be once per turn, rather than once per phase. 

I doubt they do anything... The only good thing in the GK codex is grand master babycarriers, which are great, and they are usually paired with other things, mostly IG. Killing a bloodthirster a couple extra times won't be difficult.

4 hours ago, paxmiles said:

Chaos Daemon Codex Stratagem on page 126

Just something GK players should be aware of, before they get surprised with this one. Nasty if you don't know about it ahead of time. And you can easily get around it by having a non-GK ally deal the finishing blow. 

A daemon player could use this once per phase, provided they have the command points. 

Nice so just against GK, greater brass scorpions might be worth their points.

8 hours ago, paxmiles said:

That first one is going to be a game changer. 

Regarding the second one, where are you reading this? As I read it, each "Power level" represents a full squad. So a 9-man unit would be considered an undersized 10-man unit. That is, unless the unit in question lists an option for a 9 man squad. 

Otherwise, why does it list them in steps? Why not just say this unit can have 5 to 20 models?

Hold on there, it costs a command points to deepstrike.

Don't worry what PL something is. When playing matched play, you buy the minimum squad then buy models till you have the amount you want.

Why don't they say you can have 5-20 models? Cause then PL wouldn't work. You would have to make each marine like .75 PL. 

4 hours ago, paxmiles said:

How are you deep striking bloodletters? Unless it's part of the new codex, they can't do that turn 1. Or rather they can, as per daemonic ritual, but only to deep strike no more than 12" away from a CHARACTER that doesn't move during the movement phase. So unless they come to you, it's a tough uphill battle to make melee with bloodletters by turn 1. Also, they can't deep strike at all if included in a detachment, only if they are summoned via reserve points can they deepstrike. 

Also, I've been unclear, but I think you can't field a 9-man berserker squad...? I was under the impression that my squad size choices were 5 man, 10 man, 15 man, or 20 man for that squad. An understrength squad (like 9 instead of 10) can be purchased, but only as part of an auxiliary detachment. I could have this wrong, though. 

They can deepstrike via the new codex so no summoning junk.

You can buy 5 zerkers then purchase one at a time until you get to the desired amount.

Well you may not like dp's but they are fast and will enable you to catch up to the deepstruck bloodletters, giving you rerolls of 1's. They are one of the best units in the codex.

If you go alpha legion but with Mark of khorne, you could get a unit of 20 zerkers to "deepstrike", move, then charge. That would be an excellent way to distract players tun 1 and kill some things. Plus with 20 zerkers in their face turn 1 you can move the rest of your army forward without much worry. Again you can add a dp for more cc and rerolls or a jumpack Lord.

400ish points gets you two rhinos with 10 beszerkers each. Not the greatest plan with only two rhinos but it'll work. The plan would work much better with like 4+ rhinos filled with crazy dudes.

The real problem isn't with the deployment options, but khorne and world eaters. They push you into units that have limited mobility or take away from your deployment options.

So if I was going to make an army with all MoK and mostly World Eaters, with no dp's I would do;

Battalion D- WrldEtrs

Lord w/jumpack

Exalted Champion

10 zerkers w/rhino

10 zerkers w/rhino

9 zerkers w/rhino

Patrol D -demons

Bloodthirster (either will do)

Herald on a juggernaut

30x bloodletters

Patrol D - Alpha Legion

Lord w/ jumpack

1 troop to taste

20x zerkers

So turn one you deepstrike the 30x bloodletters, 20x zerkers and a Lord. Herald advances to keep in range of the bloodletters. Zerkers charge turn 1, bloodletters try to charge. Rhinos, second Lord and bloodthirster advance. Turn 2 charge EVERYTHING!!!

With a herald, 2 Lords and a champion you have tons of auras to make you way more choppy. Is it good? Probably not. Would it be awesome? Yes!

Yea I feel those point could be better spent elsewhere? I mean it seems like your trying to play within the confines of fluff and world eaters so... Bloodletter bomb and a winged khorne dp? Maybe a bunch of zerkers.

Ehh... I would be inclined to say that you can? I mean you can't shoot if you advance but this isn't a shooting attack so yea I would say yes. 

But I think people would maybe complain about this? Even though your taking 3 demolishers in your army and already handicapping yourself.

2 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I will note that the Thermal Cannons have been FAQed to be d6 shots each, regardless of the number of models in the unit (prior to the FAQ, they were d3 shots unless the target had 5 or more models). So with two thermal cannons, I have 2d6 shots. 

Really? That's awesome. I must have completely missed that! Double thermal is actually pretty good now.

Huh... Maybe your right? A almost 200 point, ws 4+, max 4 claw attacks, 8" move, 3+/5++/t7 monster seems amazing for close combat! I mean it'll only take two turns for it to get there, plus the awesome bonus of 5+ bs while getting there, making that battle cannon you have to take sure worth it's points! I mean even your double thermal cannon knight would only do like 5-10 wounds to it before it gets there. Gee that would mean it has like 2 attacks now... Well good thing you have WS 4+.

Yes, they are a gun platform, they hide in terrain for a sweet 2+/5++. Maybe have a mark of nurgle/slaneesh so they can get -1 to hit/5+ fnp from a spell. Then if something comes in your backline they can do enough damage to try and kill something. But either as a gun platform or cc unit they suffer from the fact any job you want them to do, something else can do it better or cheaper or both.

I mean they are cool if your trying to do a theme army or trying to forge the narrative. Heck an army of them with a chaos techmarine (warpsmith?) would be super cool to play. But they arnt worth their points either for cc or as a gun boat. But your going to get more points back as a gun platform.

Also... Yea alpha legion doesn't use demons in the fluff but so? I'm talking rules here. I could care less about fluff when looking at potential rules interactions and synergies. Big themed battles? Then yea for sure, but I'm still probably going to take what's cool looking over fluff.

17 hours ago, paxmiles said:

 

I think your reactions are a bit extreme to the examples. The Defiler, for example, isn't horrible, but his value is certainly more circumstantial than in prior editions.

My reactions are based off dozens and dozens games with CSM, DG and demon index games against a myriad of opponents at all levels if play. Then applying that game experience to the new rules we have access too. IMO, 90% of the things we have seen are garbage or can be done better with other codexs using the same models. 

Now there are some nice things, being able to deepstrike two demon units (with alpha legion stratgem, one with the demon one), making a unit of Plaguebearers hit like a truck, 12" / 3 damage flamers. 

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I think GW maybe purposely keeping daemons weak so as to promote synergy between CSM and Daemons. As is, while codex daemons does look weak, I suspect it will be very strong if HERETIC ASTARTES DAEMON models are able to benefit from things in both books. That is one of the key things that the IMPERIUM is rather unbalanced by, is that they can have lots of synergy within faction, while most other factions, like TAU or NECRONS have zero options outside of thier faction. 

For example, that Slaanesh Locus of Swiftness would allow Helldrakes, Daemon Princes, Warp Talons, Defilers and so forth to charge after advancing, provided they had the Mark of Slaanesh. Seems like the synergy potenial is rather abusive, even if the daemons aren't terribly potent on their own. 

 

Ok... Wow.

Making a codex weak so as to support another codex is just bad game design. And they have never done this before. Codexs are either good by themselves or not, but they have never been designed to require another codex to function.

But let's say that's true. Allowing CSM demons to deepstrike? Well they either already have deepstrike (oblits, warptalons, etc) or can be given deepstrike via the alpha legion stratgem.

CSM demons that can really manipulate the psychic phase? Well that's only demon princes and unless they completely up the game on the demon psychic tree, CSM dp's already have access to the best psychic tree. So you can either manipulate a subpar psychic tree/weakened smite or roll with the almost broken CSM psychic tree.

Changing got nerfed to uselessness. -1 to changed to 6+ fnp? 0 reason to take him now. So no pushing mid field with oblits anymore with a -2 to hit.

The locus affecting CSM demons? Ok let's go with your example of the slaanesh locus. Warp talons and defilers are trash and the warp talons already can deepstrike or alpha legion deepstrike, which is a 1000% better. Helldrakes can already charge turn one. Demon princes are not meant to push upfield, ahead of the rest of the army. They need to hid, then strike or warptime and get a 1st turn charge anyways. And slaanesh oblits don't need to advance, they deepstrike then double tap.

Well ok if the slaanesh one is useless for CSM demons, then maybe the other ones might be good? No, they arnt. Khorne? Well besides zerkers nothing with Mark of khorne is worth playing outside a narrative battle. But let see anyways. Helldrakes? Dont really need to reroll charges when your 4" away. Defilers? They are gun platform, why are they charging? Warptalons? Again alpha legion makes rerolling charges worthless when you can park a 20 man unit 3" away. Oblits? Why are they not at max gun range? They arnt made for cc.

Well crap... How about tzeetch and nurgle locus? Ok the tzeetch one has promise. But I would still have to take essentially a tax to get rerolls on wc5 powers. Actually probably the best locus in semi competitive play. How bout that Nurgle locus tho? Solid on oblits actually due to the high number of shots, still would rather double tap with slaanesh though. Everyone else? Would rather have the CSM tricks as they are far more effective.

So is making a "support" codex stupid? Yes. Are the rules in the demon " support" codex good? Yes, if the CSM and DG codex did not exist. Am I super salty with all the leaked rules for demons even though I haven't seen the full codex? Yes. Will I be spamming 12" tzeentch flamers because it will most likely be the only build worthwhile? Yes, maybe, I dunno. I am really liking building ork pirates instead.

Yea, obviously don't have the book yet, but this release seems like hot trash.

Aside from the 12" flamers of course.

So are all these corner case, slight manipulation and interpretation of the rules actually coming up in games? 

Or are you just reading the rules and coming up with rules questions?

Pretty sure, like 95%, that you can indeed attack those models. I think you measure vertically when measure into and out of terrain levels.

Welp... Lets hope Nurgle has some cool stuff and useful rules. These are kinda meh so far.

Unless I'm missing something you absolutely can do what your doing.

So maybe, a very slight maybe, I might be able to hook you up with some ships, cards, movement stuff.

It'll take me a day to find it and then I'll have to ship it to you from SoOregon.

*Edit*

So it took 5 minutes, not a day. What I have is;

The first starter set minus the tie fighters (well one is still there, but broken), which includes 2 X-wings, upgrade cards, movement/turn sticks, meteor tiles, various tokens, damage deck, upgrade cards, dice, various other things

And

A YT-2400 which includes it's own upgrade cards

And 

A few other upgrade cards I bought.

From looking at it I have a 100 point list involving Luke, Biggs and a gentleman named Dash Rendar? Apparently I had discovered with him I could  fly through astroid fields and not take damage while shooting the opponent with ion cannons and causing them to fly into astroids or off the map.

It's yours if you want it.

Correct. One or the other.

I guess the LOS wasn't as big as I remember it. I still think the mass of the bottom half is still bigger than a LR by a good margin though. 

But hey, if you wanna cram a $140 kit and a $70 kit to make a $160 kit, have at it. At least it won't have the obnoxious amount of SKULLS!!!! everywhere. (Ignore this comment if you purchased both the knight and LR at not retail)

I've played a bunch of games of 8th and have no problem with the ITC terrain rules.

But I guess it could be if your playing nothing but dreds or daemon engines?

That would be much smaller that a LoS... Like 60-75% of the LoS

And bold choice with the double thermal cannon.  I woulda gone with 4d6 battle cannons for everything but horde and twin Gatling cannon for horde.