Dumb Questions

[MexicanNinja]

Yes, McNathanson, I 100% agree on the roll-off.  I will state though, as I did in my original post, this would be an extremely rare occurance and I don't see this used by many ordo players:

 

1) Chaos warrior basket with 3 characters

2) Doombull/non-gorebull bsb in mino unit

3) Bretonnian characters forming a single unit.

 

Heck, when I was playing Bretonnian's I had 1 lord and 5 paladins; however, I used 2 of them as solo paladins instead of using 2 units of yeomen.  That, and the whole point of the other 4 characters was for combat effictiveness in the units of knights of the realm.

 

Next time I meet with Raindog I am going to bring an FAQ used by the Master's.  They have addressed many things GW has not, this issue being one of them.  After reading over their FAQ, it addresses many things GW has neglected and I believe it's a great "in-additon to" FAQ.

[McNathanson]

Yeah there used to be an "in addition to" FAQ we used at OFCC for the first 4 or 5 years, Direwolf FAQ… don't know if it's still used or not, but it was a great way to level-set on all these issues for players coming from different gaming circles.  Just an easy to way to set house rules.

 

Oh and I agree an all-character unit would be unlikely, but for Brets, a Knight unit with Lord General and Paladin BSB is pretty common, and I can totally see wanting to charge them both out of the unit on the same turn (vs. the same target or different targets, whatever).  

[ratrek]

Probably a good plan considering GW has abandoned doing FAQ's since the HE book. That's either sheer gall by the book writers, a precusor to 9th where the answers will change/be resolved or an complete bag of apathy to the players of the game.

[McNathanson]

Adam do you know if there's a current "best" WFB FAQ, like the Direwolf FAQ used to be?  

[Veskit]

I fully understand what you are saying.  However, the situation that arrises is that since the rest of them are still characters, and following the additional rule allowing a character to declare a charge out of a unit, you could declare a charge with more than one character.  There is nothing in the MRB which states only one character may declare a charge out of a unit.

 

I guess, the end result would be, that all but the last character would be able to declare a charge.  However, this could still be argued either way because:

 

1) Yes, the character is still considered to be a unit

2) Yes, the character still follows the rules for charging out of a unit

 

By your argument couldn't I declare a charge with the unit then declare charges with all my characters thus bypassing the restriction of a unit being able to declare a charge to begin with then?  I mean you get to move chargers afterwards in any order after declarations right?

 

I'll open a rulebook and come up with some references but I was always on the same page with Savion on this one.

[Veskit]

I'm totally on board with Savion due to pg 99.
 

 

Whilst a character is part of a unit, both he and the unit (including any other characters that have joined that unit) are treated as a single combined unit for all rules purposes, save for the exceptions listed here.

 

 

Later in the same section under movement:

 

Similarly, if the character is subject to any movement restrictions, then those restrictions apply to the whole combined unit whilst the character remains a part of it, and vice versa.

 

 

 

Then the whammy of the movement restriction mentioned here:

 

A character can charge out of a unit, by declaring a charge in the relevant phase - in which case, he will move and his unit will stay still - it is not permitted to declare a charge of its own, though it can move during the remaining moves phase.

 

 

 

Since the restriction is to the unit, it then due to virtue of the paragraph above apply to the combined unit.  Therefore no other characters could declare charges (as they're restricted from doing so because the unit is restricted from doing so).

[McNathanson]

Another Dumb Question: if a unit is say, 10 models wide, and it is charged by a unit that is say 5 models wide, does the charging player get to decide where exactly the align combatants?  Or is it shortest path?  Or something else?  

The main reason for this question is that if I have a Caster in the front rank of a 10-wide unit, I'm wondering if placing her to one of the far edges (e.g. the edge farthest from an enemy unit about to charge me) would possibly keep her out of combat.

[Veskit]

charging player gets to decide within the scope of being able to make the movement as such (some obstacles can restrict where the charging unit can fit for example) and provided the charging player is still endeavoring to maximize the combat for both sides.

 

Far side for casters is still ideal as the player when maximizing will likely only get one model (thus 2 with the 2nd rank's attacks) into BtB with the caster increasing his survivability.

[McNathanson]

Thanks Veskit!  Does "scope of being able to make the movement" include having the movement distance in the charge roll to reach the far side of the unit?  

[McNathanson]

Oh and here's a fantastic hacky idea: what about using TWO larger base characters (e.g. 25mm) on the edge of a 20mm unit?  Any unit with an even multiple of 20mm couldn't touch the far character at all without failing to maximize (the near edge would fail to reach corner to corner).  Or is this blocked by the rules for odd base sizes?

[Veskit]

Thanks Veskit!  Does "scope of being able to make the movement" include having the movement distance in the charge roll to reach the far side of the unit?  

No, once a roll is determined to be enough to make the charge you got basically unlimited movement from that point.

[Veskit]

Oh and here's a fantastic hacky idea: what about using TWO larger base characters (e.g. 25mm) on the edge of a 20mm unit?  Any unit with an even multiple of 20mm couldn't touch the far character at all without failing to maximize (the near edge would fail to reach corner to corner).  Or is this blocked by the rules for odd base sizes?

Can't cantilever a character on the end of another character, if you want to have 2 larger based characters in a unit, they would have to be one on each end of the unit.

Pg 98.

There's No Room!

If a character cannot be placed within the unit, or beside the front rank, then he cannot attempt to join that unit.  This is obvious, perhaps, but worth saying nonetheless.

 

[ratrek]

Adam do you know if there's a current "best" WFB FAQ, like the Direwolf FAQ used to be?  

 

Well there's a couple that seem to be the Go To these days. Typically it's either the ETC document but some of the answers bug people who like book hammer (the ETC FAQ for instance doesn't use TLoS, it uses the 7th Ed model since the ETC decided TLoS is stupid). There's also the one done by the English team for their Masters event which for the book hammer players is generally the go to.

 

 

Thanks Veskit!  Does "scope of being able to make the movement" include having the movement distance in the charge roll to reach the far side of the unit?  

 

No and I'm finding that wicked annoying so far. Once the roll is made, they're in and the charger gets to pick where as long as model maximizing is done.

[TJP]

To be clear, you get the choice of how you want to maximize given that you can make ONE wheel of up to 90 degrees at any point during the charge, must make contact, and must then align to the charged unit. Usually, but not always, if your unit is wider than your enemies, you can manage to keep a wimpy wizard out of combat like this. As already stated, if you receive the charge, unless the charging unit is wider, you are likely to only get 1 model in base contact (probably corner-to-corner).

 

I'm not a Bret expert, but if you are, say, thinking of a Damsel or the like in a horde unit of Men At Arms, if you are looking at taking a charge, you might do better by bailing her out of the unit if you have somewhere safer for her to be (behind a building for example). Or park her in some knights in the middle of the second rank :)

[MexicanNinja]

I would suggest that if you are going for a damsel in a unit of MAA then you just take the prayer icon, activate it as soon as it's needed, or before she dies, then you don't really care if she falls.

[McNathanson]

Thanks guys, great info and advice.

 

I don't really know yet what I'm planning exactly, just ruminating on rules :)  But yeah at some point I'll have a caster in my Men at Arms or Bowmen, probably either to set of the Prayer Icon to give them the Blessing, or perhaps to use as cover for an L4 using a lot of dice, so I don't miscast and kill my Knights as easily.  Of course, Throne of Vines… and I'm not sure I want my L4 on foot, and mounted she doesn't get cover from an infantry unit against cannons, right?  Blah blah.  Right now, just trying to understand the options.

 

One thing I'm really going to have to adjust to is the new rules for terrain and buildings and such.  I gather there's a lot more on a typical table nowadays than back in 6th/7th.  And that buildings are more significant.  Haven't even read the rules on them yet though, still digesting the implications of the basic changes.

[TJP]

Life or Beasts or Heavens yea? All good stuff for Bretonnians - Life to bring back knights and make them even tougher, Beasts to make your peasants decent and make your characters ridiculous, Heavens to buff and debuff and zap and blast.

 

There's a lot more terrain than in 7th, but it has less of an overall effect, especially on movement. An infantry unit doesn't get ranks in the woods, but it isn't slowed down at all, vs so much as to be completely stuck for 2+ turns. We don't tend to use special terrain or mysterious forests/rivers unless we are playing a specific scenario around here, though.

[ratrek]

Thanks guys, great info and advice.

 

I don't really know yet what I'm planning exactly, just ruminating on rules :)  But yeah at some point I'll have a caster in my Men at Arms or Bowmen, probably either to set of the Prayer Icon to give them the Blessing, or perhaps to use as cover for an L4 using a lot of dice, so I don't miscast and kill my Knights as easily.  Of course, Throne of Vines… and I'm not sure I want my L4 on foot, and mounted she doesn't get cover from an infantry unit against cannons, right?  Blah blah.  Right now, just trying to understand the options.

 

One thing I'm really going to have to adjust to is the new rules for terrain and buildings and such.  I gather there's a lot more on a typical table nowadays than back in 6th/7th.  And that buildings are more significant.  Haven't even read the rules on them yet though, still digesting the implications of the basic changes.

 

The MR of the mages stacks with the Knights ward saves against magic attacks, so I'd stick them in the bigger knight buses for more damage protection against any damage spells the knights don't like.

 

Maybe also consider sticking the Crown of Command on the Lv4 mage. Makes the knight block Stubborn on a character that's hard to remove and leaves plenty of points for other items you might want.

[MexicanNinja]

NtK:

 

Terrain is much more significant than the previous editions.  They have a lot of random elements to them.  More terrain is used on the table, and buildings are much more tactical than they once were.

 

As for you prophetess/damsel:

 

I would suggest, like stated above, to put your lord level caster on a horse in a unit of errants with crown of command.  You now have a cheap knight unit with stubborn.  The prohpetess is safe in the back rank, she would still get a 2+ look out sir roll to pass the wound onto someone else (who would have a 5+ ward at this time).  I would then stick your level 2 with prayer icon in your unit of MAA to get them the blessing.

 

As for the lores, this is all about how you want to play your Bret's.  I tried life at first and then quickly switched to beasts on both wizards.  This pretty much garaunteed that my level 2 would get transformation (that thing saves the day for MAA combats).  Also, with the sig spell and access to savage beast of horros on your mobile level 4, you can increase the fighting capabilities of your characters/knights past the initial round of combat.

 

I ran the following characters:

Lord, prophetess, damsel, 5 paladins (1 went with the lord in a unit of KoTR, 2 went with another KoTR, 2 operated as solo paladins with just lance and shields).  I used the 2 solo paladins because they were actaully able to hurt things (unlike the yeomen).  Prophetess went in a unit of KE (to act as an anvil for my other two units), and damsel joined the MAA for the blessing.

 

Again, I was extremely character heavy, but in my experience with Bretonnia, you need the S5 characters in those units for combat rounds after the 1st.  Without the characters, there is little to no combat effectiveness (in the way of killing other models w S3 attacks).