Dumb Questions

[McNathanson]

If you hate it when people don't search the internet for answers before posting a question in a forum, read no further :)

 

These are just some things that have come to mind while looking over the "new" (to me) rulebook.  Some of them are rules questions, some just general "meta game" questions for more experienced players.

 

1)  If a unit contains multiple characters, can each of them charge out of the unit on the same turn?  What about a unit consisting ONLY of characters (say 5 Paladins or whatever)?  Can they ALL charge in the same turn?

 

2)  If a Bretonnian Lord with the Virtue of Audacity drinks a Potion of Strength, does he still re-roll to hit and wound vs. an enemy with say S5?  The WFB FAQ says that non-weapon effects work for other tests, unless the item says otherwise… the Virtue says, "Against enemies with a higher Strength than himself (before modifications from weapons etc), the Knight may re-roll any failed rolls to hit and to wound."  So I would guess "yes", he does count as S4 even after drinking a Potion, but wanted to double check.

 

3)  In my two whole games against Raindog, it seemed pretty common to throw a pretty big handful of casting dice.  It also seems like a Feedback Scroll is an awesome way to shut that down.  Is it a commonly taken item?

 

4)  Back in the old FAQ for Bretonnia it used to clearly state that a magical lance is still used in non-charging rounds of combat, so that you get the magical effects (but of course not +2S) in subsequent rounds.  This isn't in the new Bret FAQ; is it a general rule now, or what?

 

5)  It seems like Trebuchets are pretty effective… are there a lot of units in the commonly played armies that can reach out and kill war machines (e.g. tunneling scorpions or outflanking gorgers from the days of yore)?  What are some good ways to try to protect my war machines?  I'm thinking perhaps of several lines of sacrificial archer units… or a big fat block of Men at Arms?  Peg Knights were always awesome at it before, because they had 360 charge arc, but no more of that bonus ;)

6)  If Knights are Heroic and meant to slay Dragons and evil Chaos Warlords and whatnot, how come they aren't tough enough to do so?   Just kidding.  I know that a pure heart and true intentions will carry the day.

 

I'm sure I'll have lots more, these are just a few that come to mind :)

Thanks in advance for any/all replies!

Nathan

[TJP]

Systems are down at work, so I'll give it a try:

 

1. Actually...good question. My gut feeling is no (as you have to declare charges individually, and once a character has charged out of a unit, that unit can't charge). I'd have to read the rulebook for confirmation though...
2. If that is the EXACT wording of the gift, then I don't think the potion would count. Depends on the wording of the gift, but then again, take for example the massive argument and FAQ-wobbling on what 'unmodified leadership' is :)
3. Feedback scroll doesn't stop the spell, though, and if you throw a whole handful of dice, you have already accepted that you may lose your wizard or a bunch of his unit to a miscast. Still good, but I haven't taken it. Heck, I rarely take a dispel scroll, for what it's worth. Probably to my detriment, but the Chaos Familiar and Skull of Katam (aka Skull of Terrible Advice) usually take up my arcane item slots.
4. I know that there was discussion of this a while back, but I don't remember the resolution. Newer books (even 7th ed books) shied away from giving magic weapons the spear or lance or great weapon type, so Bretts are the only ones really that still have it. Look for "+2 strength on the charge, mounted only" explicitly in the new Brett book rather than 'lance' for this reason.
5. The increase in charge distances mean more units can get to your warmachines. Gorgers and Scorpions are pretty unseen these days (with Ogres, you're more likely to have your Treb smashed by they Ogre's own cannon now, and the Tomb Kings don't have a great answer for it in any case). Fast cav and scouts are always a danger, and flying beasties like harpies and eagles will get them over the top of your own units. "Chaff' clearing is an important job - try to shoot down these threats with bowfire, as they are usually pretty vulnerable. I'm not an expert of course - my only 'war machine' is an unbreakable toughness 6 monster daemon engine...
6.  Too much time and money on fancy helmets and la-de-da tournaments and not enough on weaponry and training :) Also, the Heroic Killing Blow lord is an expert at this, if he lives long enough to swing...

[MexicanNinja]

If you have a unit consiting of nothing but characters, each one can declare a charge against a different unit or individually against the same one.

 

The problem with feedback scroll is it's 50 points and doesn't stop the spell. I use it every once in awhile, it works half the time.

 

If you have a magic weapon (any type including a lance) you mst always use a magic weapon in close combat.

 

Plant your trebs in the back of your corner and if an emeny dedicates something to close in on it then most likely that unit won't be doing much of anything else.

 

If you're taking a lord always give him virtue of heroism. It gives you heroic killing blow know and that takes out monsters and super characters. I'd them suggest the +3 attack sword from the MRB or the heartwood lance. Potion of foolhardiness is a good option as well.

[McNathanson]

Thanks Fellas!

1)  My reading is what TJP said; MexicanNinja where is that interpretation coming from?  Obviously I would prefer it so that I can have my Lord and/or BSB charge out, but...
2)  As informal as the quote in my OP sounds, yes, that's verbatim the wording from the Bret book :)

...

4)  Wait, new Bretonnia book?!  Is it on the horizon??

5)  Good suggestions!  Thanks!

6)  I'm thinking of a kit that is built for killing monsters, chaos lords, etc, but also monstrous infantry, cavalry, etc… basically it would be:  Virtue of Audacity (re-roll to hit and to wound vs. enemies with S5+), Sword of Heroes (+1S and d3 wounds vs. enemies with T5+), Potion of Strength (for things with T6+), Dragonhelm (1+ AS total, and 2+ Ward vs. flaming attacks), and Luckstone (re-roll one failed armor save).  WIth a T4, a 1+ armor save and a single re-roll, and then 5+/6+ ward from the Blessing, do you guys think he'll live long enough to deliver his attacks?  With the potion, against multi-wound monsters with WS5 or less, and T6 or less, he would deal around 7 wounds with a -4 AS modifier.  Pretty Heroic still, and more reliable than the killing blow option.  Would be awesome to slay a dragon or a giant on the charge, or cut down lots of big bad monstrous cav etc :)  

[TJP]

 

4)  Wait, new Bretonnia book?!  Is it on the horizon??

 

Sadly, no. Dwarfs then Wood Elves, as far as I know. Nothing beyond that, except a probably 9th ed eventually.

[McNathanson]

Boo! :)

[MexicanNinja]

When you declare a character charging out of a unit he is doing it indivdually. The most common of these is seen wth a chaos character charging out of a unit of warriors on a daemonic steed or the doombll from the minotaur unit. Once the character has declared the charge he is acting independently. You rarely see units of characters.

 

As for the bret builg for killinh monsters, chaos lords, mc, mi, etc. Nothing is better than virtue of heroism. Again, it has been faq'd to give the character heroic killing blow.

[generalripphook]

I would drop the potion, helm and luckstone for the gromil great helm which gives you +1 AS and re-rolls all failed aromor saves.

[ratrek]

1: No.

When a character joins a unit, any movement restrictions on the character are shared by the unit. Likewise any movement restrictions on the unit is shared by the character. As soon as the first character has declared a charge, the unit now has the restriction of Cannot Charge. This restriction on the unit is now shared by the characters.

 

2: Yes

 

3: Rarely. Most armies have more interesting Arcane items and a lot of armies don't take multiple wizards.

[McNathanson]

Hey Ratrek!  Good to see you're still on the forums… do you play still regularly?  Where are you playing at?  Oh and thanks for the answers :)

MN: Virtue of Heroism is good, for sure.  I'll do the math on it before I decide for sure, but I'm betting it's maybe better versus Dragons and other things with 5 or 6 Wounds, but not nearly as good versus MI/MC.

generalripphook: the helm gives a +1 AS too, at least according to Army Builder which is usually more up to date on FAQs etc than I am :)  Does it not?

 

Another question: can a Bretonnia BSB carry a magic shield?  Army Builder says yes, i see advanced build discussions using e.g. Charmed Shield on the BSB, but the rule book says the thing about "if it cant take the mundane version…" or whatever.  Is there a clear ruling on this for OFCC?

[generalripphook]

They both give you a +1 AS but the gromil greatbhelm lets younre-roll ALL failed armor saves.

[Raindog]

If you cannot take a mundane shield, you cannot take a magic one.the Wood Elf BSB and the Dwarf BsB have the same issue.

[MexicanNinja]

Virtue of heroism is significantly better against mc/mi. 6's to wound ignore armour saves and kills a model outright for any 6 rolled to wound.

[MexicanNinja]

1: No.

When a character joins a unit, any movement restrictions on the character are shared by the unit. Likewise any movement restrictions on the unit is shared by the character. As soon as the first character has declared a charge, the unit now has the restriction of Cannot Charge. This restriction on the unit is now shared by the characters.

 

2: Yes

 

3: Rarely. Most armies have more interesting Arcane items and a lot of armies don't take multiple wizards.

1. If a unit is consited of only characters, each one can declare a charge against different units. The rules state that a character is abale to charge out of a unit but the unit isn't able to declare a charge. If the unit is nothing but characters they are able to declare individual charges (since they all fall under the rule for characters charging out of a unit). This is a rare case and isn't seen often or at all, for the most part. The rule isn't clearly defined for units consisting of only characters.

[McNathanson]

They both give you a +1 AS but the gromil greatbhelm lets younre-roll ALL failed armor saves.

 

Yes I know the gromril great helm does that, but it's 30 pts vs 15 for the combo I'm using, which fits with the offensive package I'm using :)

 

Virtue of heroism is significantly better against mc/mi. 6's to wound ignore armour saves and kills a model outright for any 6 rolled to wound.

 

Have you done the math?  What MC/MI in particular are you thinking of?  I don't know what stat lines are likely out there, and I haven't had time to do it carefully, but a quick take assuming WS5 S5 T5 3W 4+AS:

 

S6 Lance + HKB: 4 attacks * 2/3 hits per attack * ((1/6 KB * 3 wounds per KB) + (1/2 non-KB-but-still-wounding)) wounds per hit = 2.67 average Wounds on the charge with a significant standard deviation (i.e. big swings in either direction are relatively common). 

 

Sword of Heroes + Audacity: 4 attacks * 8/9 hits per attack * 3/4 wounds per hit * 5/6 unsaved per wound * 2 wounds per unsaved = 4.44 average Wounds on the charge and on every subsequent round, with a much more consistent performance.

 

If you add the Heartwood Lance, for 35 points you get what, about .33 more wounds per attack, or ~1.33 more wounds, and you're sitting at 75 points of offense?  

 

I think the HKB functions much better against a W6 T6 Dragon with a 3+ save… which would be nice, don't get me wrong :)

 

Maybe I'll find points for both Lords!  Hah!

[ratrek]

Nathan: Not regularly these days, just sporadic play. The kiddo at home doesn't really allow for more yet.

 

MN: Well, by your wording, multiple characters can't charge independently. They join together, which forms a unit, yes? Thus all rules that apply to a unit applies to the unit of characters unless there is a proven exception. I haven't been able to find anything that exempts characters from unit rule restrictions even if the unit is only characters.

 

Do you have a page reference or a FAQ I could look at?

[Ring_of_Gyges]

1) I suspect the "only one character can charge and the rest of the unit sits there" answers are right, but I haven't looked it up.

 

2) I agree with you.  "Etc" is about as vague as one can get, but if something other than weapons is meant to be excluded what else could it be other than magic effects?

 

3) Tossing the maximum six dice at a spell is very common, the feedback scroll isn't.  Since everyone shares dice it is common to only have one wizard (often a level 4), so it would be the only arcane item in the army.  Those level four wizards running around everywhere tend to have some sort of ward (4+ is available to everyone) and the one, maybe two wounds, don't trouble them too much.  Most of the time you'd rather have a dispel scroll and stop the spell cold.

 

4) It looks to me like you'd still use the magic lance.  Page 501 says if you have a magic close combat weapon you have to use it, and the lance is a magic close combat weapon.  I think a weapon that says "+2 strength on the charge and attacks are flaming" for example would be flaming all day long.

 

5) Trebuchets are super effective, taking two is pretty common.  I don't have any experience defending them though.

 

6) The greater the chance of being turned into a wet smear by Lord Stabby McPointyteeth the greater the honor in killing him!

[McNathanson]

Nathan: Not regularly these days, just sporadic play. The kiddo at home doesn't really allow for more yet.

 

I hear you; my daughter is 7 now and I'm just starting to find a few hours a week to maybe paint a knight or work on my motorcycle.  Still there's always something I *should* be doing instead :)

[MexicanNinja]

...MN: Well, by your wording, multiple characters can't charge independently. They join together, which forms a unit, yes? Thus all rules that apply to a unit applies to the unit of characters unless there is a proven exception. I haven't been able to find anything that exempts characters from unit rule restrictions even if the unit is only characters.

 

Do you have a page reference or a FAQ I could look at?

 

So, this is a greyish area and may be looked at by both sides.  I don't have the book in front of me; however, I can tell you that I am referring to pages 96-99.  I want to say that on page 97, towards the top of the page it describes a character, or characters, joining a unit.  Then on, I believe, page 99 it talks about a character charging out of a unit.  Yes, a character is able to charge out of a unit but then the unit is unable to declare a charge.

 

It's at this point that the clear point of the rule is faded.  It just says that a character may declare a charge out of a unit.  It doesn't state that only 1 character may do so.  This may be interpreted many ways.

 

Complicated example:

 

You have a unit consisting of 4 paladins.  Each of them are characters.  Paladin 1 declares a charge, Paladin 2 declares a charge, Paladin 3 declares a charge, Paladin 4 declares a charge.  According to the rule stating that a character is able to declare a charge out of the unit they are with they may all declare a seperate charge action.

 

I will say, again, that seeing a unit comprised of all characters isn't something you see.  I have yet to see an all character unit in 8th edition.

[savion47]

Here is the logic as I see it:

 

1. Multiple characters together form a single unit. (page 99 top paragraph)

2. Rule states that a character can charge out of a unit (page 101) but the unit cannot declare a charge after that.

 

A character can charge out of a unit, by declaring a charge in the relevant phase - in which case, he will move and his unit will stay still - it is not permitted to declare a charge of its own though it can move during the Remaining Moves phase.

3. Since the remaining characters make up the unit that is left after the first character declares a charge, they are not allowed to declare a charge.

[MexicanNinja]

Here is the logic as I see it:

 

1. Multiple characters together form a single unit. (page 99 top paragraph)

2. Rule states that a character can charge out of a unit (page 101) but the unit cannot declare a charge after that.

3. Since the remaining characters make up the unit that is left after the first character declares a charge, they are not allowed to declare a charge.

 

I fully understand what you are saying.  However, the situation that arrises is that since the rest of them are still characters, and following the additional rule allowing a character to declare a charge out of a unit, you could declare a charge with more than one character.  There is nothing in the MRB which states only one character may declare a charge out of a unit.

 

I guess, the end result would be, that all but the last character would be able to declare a charge.  However, this could still be argued either way because:

 

1) Yes, the character is still considered to be a unit

2) Yes, the character still follows the rules for charging out of a unit

[McNathanson]

I see your point MexicanNinja, but I think this is one of those situations where the "more specific rule" overrides the "less specific".  For example, yes there is a rule that says characters can charge out of a unit.  Yes there is also a rule that says once a character charges out of a unit, the unit cannot declare a charge.  Which rule "wins"?  

 

I'm pretty sure the "cannot" rule wins.  Think of it this way: there is a rule that says a unit CAN declare a charge.  There are then lots of other rules saying when it cannot (for example after a character charges out).

 

Strict reading of the rules, I believe once the first character has declared, the remainder of the charcters, and the unit itself, are SOL.

 

Probably not something that really matters much either way, except of course I do have a lance of knights with more than one character on occasion.  Eh, oh well :)

[MexicanNinja]

Again, I fully understand your point.  However, which rule is the specific rule?  The first rule covers what restricts a unit once a character charges out.  As a character you then follow the specific rules for characters.  There is no clear wording in this aspect of the game when looking at multiple characters in a unit.

 

As gamers, we are all able to say, "what I believe" or "how I view this" but there is no rule to back it up unless you can show your opponent what rule backs up your statement.  Being the rules-as-written gamer that I am, I don't see how you could tell your opponent with certainty that more than one character isn't allowed to declare a charge out of a unit.

 

Again, the unit follows the rules for the unit portion and then the characters follow the specific rules for characters charging out of a unit.  Being that the character is, well, a character, that character would by all means rules-as-written be allowed to declare a charge out of the unit they are in.

 

How do I come up with this conclusion?  There is a specific rule which is directed towards units and then there is a specific rule directed towards characters.

[VonRuger]

I read it as individual characters can continue to charge out of the unit until doing so would make them no longer a unit. For example a unit of 5 paladins, 3 of them could charge out because the last two are still a unit, which can't charge because of the rule.

[McNathanson]

On second thought, I change my vote to "Bretonnian characters can charge out of a unit until the enemy is dead or surrenders on the spot, at which point the day is ours, praise be the Lady!"

Hey MN I think this would be a good one to roll-off before a game for the time being, what do you think?

VonRuger!  Hey did you get my PM??