Paladin advice?

[Guest]

Okay, been working on some awesome models intended for use as paladins. I'm wondering about weapon load-outs, suggestions?

 

Presently I'm thinking 5x paladins, 2x psycannons, 1x Hammer, 4x Halberds. Unit would be 315pts before unit attachments (ICs) and transports. I plan to make them scoring (via draigo).

 

Suggestions, or does this seem good?

-Pax

[AbusePuppy]

That's a fairly decent loadout. I'm not sure what your overall plan is, but when running Draigo I pretty much always do it deathstar style- him, an Inquisitor (either Coteaz or Terminator/Psycannon) and a full ten Paladins with most all of the upgrades, then a couple of solo guys hanging around on the sidelines.

 

The 5man loadout is basically just mirrored there, though- I might suggest running one Sword on a guy so you have someone to try and soak up Power Fist/Smash hits, but other than that it's basically fine. You can also argue the distribution of Hammers vs. Halberds, but at the end of the day it's not a huge deal.

[Guest]

That's a fairly decent loadout. I'm not sure what your overall plan is, but when running Draigo I pretty much always do it deathstar style- him, an Inquisitor (either Coteaz or Terminator/Psycannon) and a full ten Paladins with most all of the upgrades, then a couple of solo guys hanging around on the sidelines.

 

The 5man loadout is basically just mirrored there, though- I might suggest running one Sword on a guy so you have someone to try and soak up Power Fist/Smash hits, but other than that it's basically fine. You can also argue the distribution of Hammers vs. Halberds, but at the end of the day it's not a huge deal.

Overall plan is vague at the moment. Army theme is anti-daemon/CSM, so unit really fits general theme.

 

I think I want the paladins to fill roles that the rest of my imperium doesn't do so well, so halbreds are probably the route I want, as that high initiative is impressive on 2+ armored troops. The hammer is just there to ensure I don't find myself trapped in situations where I can't damage my enemies.

 

As for the sword, I'd go staff or draigo before I considered the swords on paladins (A brotherhood champion is also a good call if I'm not planning to deep strike them). I've tested the swords and it really sucks at this squad size and against daemons. Issue is the low initaitiative (vs halberd) and low strength (vs hammer), while the added durability is pure fail when facing a proper opponent (like a blood thirster). It is particularly fail with 6th's smash mechanic, which hits paladins a bit harder than it does for vehicles (as 5th 2d6 armor pen was arguably better) due to making just about every MC now equipped with ID weapons.

 

I suppose I could swap the psycannons for the much weaker psilencers to modify the cost to 295pts, but I've had very mixed results with that weapon (as on paper, psilencers are great against non-vehicles daemons and really suck really bad against everything else). In particular, the psilencers are nice against daemon FMCs, as they have very reliable odds to hit and wound (12 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound), which is good for forcing grounding tests and maybe getting a wound in. Against vehicles, the psilencer is just piss.

 

Upon re-reading my codex, looks like the paladins have krak grenades...lol, so even if I go the psilencer route, I can still lob a S6 grenade at enemy vehicles and if stuck in assault without a hammer, I've got a unit with S6 krak grenades.

 

Hmmm...could also take the incinerators. Drawback is that the unit would have pretty good odds of eliminating it's own charge. Still, nice defensively against daemon FMCs, as they often charge me after landing. 285pts like this. Would either need a LR transport or a defensive structure to hide inside while trying to get in range of my enemy.

-Pax

[AbusePuppy]

I would never take Psilencers or Incinerators- the Psycannon is just so blatantly superior that there's no real reason to bother.

 

A Sword would basically be there as a free way to soak up a small number of ID wounds- yes, you will tank them on Draigo first if possible, but in my experience he tends to have to roll a lot of saves, so that is a very finite solution. Against a Bloodthirster or the like you are hoping to kill him before rolling saves becomes an issue- it's more for those emergency cases where your dice go bad that you want the Sword. Spending points on a Warding Staff is just not a great option, even in a 10man squad (since Paladins can't accept challenges) and you should typically murder anything that is a real threat to you before it even gets to swing with 4-6 Halberds in the unit plus Draigo.

[Lord Hanaur]

I'd drop five 3 man Paladin units in with a DaemonHammer, Force Halberd and Falchions on each respectively.  Let the AutoCannon Dreads pave the way for some ruthless devastation and maybe try and get a Purifier squad upfield to bring the pain as far as Psycannons goodness.

 

3 Man Paladin squads dropping from heaven seems like you could get in there and do some damage afterwards.  My friend used to do it with Cahos Terminators and they are no comparison to paladins.

[AbusePuppy]

3man seems like a weird number- I'd either go smaller (to get more units for cheaper) or larger (to be able to add the Psycannons.)

[Psilence]

As a long time grey knight player all I can do is echo some of the advice posted above.  Psycannons would be my default choice as far as heavies, allowing a normally slow unit to contribute significant fire power to the game, and keeps them working if your opponent decides to kite the unit.

 

The cc weapon load out (4 halberds and a hammer) is defiantly viable.  The addition of another hammer would allow you to chew threw other 2+ units a little better, but is not necessary if the unit is supported/screened by the rest of the army.  See 'Meat Shield'     The 4++ given by swords can work every once in a while, but from experience usually fails at critical moments.  Removing the treat before it can swing (halberd) works better in my experience. 

 

Warding staves come down to preference.  They are an expensive upgrade, but barring precision strikes allows the receiving player to tank through some heavy hits and strike back effectively.  Ap 3 is a cherry on top.  If i have the points this is one of auto includes in larger units of paladins.  

 

One upgrade not yet discussed is the inclusion of an apothecary.  While wildly expensive, it adds another significant layer of durability to an already hard unit.  With Draigo at its head, and some repositioning from turn to turn of wounded models, the multi-wound nature of the paladins can be taken advantage of for longer.  Not quite as good as 5th ed wound allocation, but still good.  It has decided a few of my games (admittedly I had some hot dice   ) and is another auto include in my larger units.

 

Lastly, solodins (single paladin units) are one of my new favorites.  For a fairly small points investment you get a solid late game (Draigos psychic communion) disruption unit.  While not a huge threat, if ignored they will wreck small 'soft' claiming units and claim or contest objectives like champs.  These guys will win you games.  Hammers on these guys keeps them viable vs most anything they encounter.

 

The only time I would use 2-3 man units would be if you are running a themed paladin army or if you happen to have points left over.  While fun, the lack of psycannons hurts, and the increased threat generated by the unit would make target priorities easier for your opponent.

 

How will the unit be used pax?  Mini deathstar/fire soak?  Dedicated counter assault?  General purpose?  Are you running a grey knight army or sticking them in as allies for your guard/DA?

[Lord Hanaur]

3man seems like a weird number- I'd either go smaller (to get more units for cheaper) or larger (to be able to add the Psycannons.)

Wierdness factor aside, its six very hard wounds and it does a lot of damage if you don't kill it.  And with five of them dropping in on 2+, saturation is immediate in turn 2, which is what you need.  Getting them off of objectives if they hide is no fun for the enemy either.  Small units have a virtue in that they really can find a place to scatter to and hide, cut off the board for the enemy a little bit and distract from the other threats a bit.  Hard to focus finre on the dreads etc...  on turn two when, if you do, you lose 5 tanks doing it, for example.  A Mechdar player would have no choice but to ptrotect their precious vehicles or watch them get hammered into the ground but as fate would have it, a Wave serpent, on a good day has 14 shots Twin linked and can only do 2 wounds to the six Paladin wound pool.  Not enough.  In round 3, a mechdar player is going to lose every tank they have just about, as one example.  

 

There's a lot of virtue to this approach.

[AbusePuppy]

Oh, sure, I'm not faulting the general approach- small squads of Paladins can be extremely inconvenient for the other player- I full agree with psilence that Solodins are a vastly disproportionate threat for their costs. What I'm not sure I understand is the "middle of the road" selection of three members; you aren't getting the virtues of a really small squad of 1-2 (which are cheap and largely disposable, but still a danger to the enemy) nor of larger squads (which can do wound allocation shenanigans and get access to what is arguably the most versatile gun in the game, the Psycannon, and two of them no less.) What makes three a better choice than two, one, or five?

[Lord Hanaur]

The math says you'll be down to two by the time they charge in some cases.  Once they kill their target, they will be shot again, but again, its hard to kill them so you're conceding that theenemy can kill two total before IT hits its second target.  At two strong, you will likely NOT hit a second target.  TWO targets per unit is 10 targets.  THAT'S a lot of pain.

 

So I'm measuring it in potential number of total targets they can attack/kill in a game.  If i wipe a Fire Warrior Squad and a Hammerhead per unit, that's almost the entire Tau scoring corps.  Once thats done, winning is a matter of secondary objectives (assuming you dont wipe them utterly).  I'd rather the enemy EARNED that first blood since my scoring units are in mortal danger the entire game.

 

AND...  THEY ARE your scoring  units, dont forget about that.  They need to be just a little more prtected.  That third paladin tips the unit from DANGEROUS mode to an actual LOAD of trouble.

 

Its a real delicate balance but those would be my thoughts,.

[Guest]

How will the unit be used pax?  Mini deathstar/fire soak?  Dedicated counter assault?  General purpose?  Are you running a grey knight army or sticking them in as allies for your guard/DA?

They are sticking with my IG/DA forces. Lately I've been noticing a need for 2+ armor troops. I'm not a fan of the special characters required to make my DA terms troops, nor do I like their increased cost for terms. In particular, I've faced helldrakes a few times, which liquify my non-TDA infantry and bikes. Transports help, but they also limit the targets presented to my enemies. Seems like the solution is 2+ armor. So, the present plan is to add 5 GK terms and 5 GK paladins, draigo, and maybe a few other options (like a land raider, purgation squad, vindicare or interceptor squad). GK terms will likely include Thawn, though I remain undecided on that point. The GK terms will likely have no heavy weapons, just include SBs (with maybe psybolt).

 

Paladins/terms will likely have a transport or building option, even if it isn't how they deploy. I've learned from experience that getting a transport "option" is important to list flexibility, even if the models do not utilize it in every game. Presently, the big temptation is a Fortress of Redemption, as I'd get 8 "spots" for units at a cost under a single land raider. It even has a barrage weapon, so if I decide to play offensively, the Fortress can still be valuable.

 

As for the paladins specifically, been working on squat RT dreadnoughts for this role. They fit on the 40mm bases (models came on 40mm squares), but look more imposing than the regular RT GK terms I have, so the +1 wound terms really look like they've got +1 wound. I recently found some "counts as" models for paladins psycannons/psilencers, which should look right with the RT dreads. Halberds would be from Furioso dreads while hammers would be from the dreadnight. Presently, I'm debating buying the furoso dreads in bits vs getting 4 kits and using the spare bits for other projects. If I go hammers, I'd get multiple dreadnights, which could also lead to a bunch of fun extra bits.

 

I'll probably go the halberd bitz route, then save the "additional" money for another project (like a fortress of redemption).

 

I truly hate how GW made the entire GK army only WYSIWYG from a painting perspective, you just can't tell the units apart (like the visual difference between paladins and terminators, or purgation squads and purifiers). I think the 2-wound terms should be a bit larger than 1-wound versions. Mine also look really cool. I've got, I think, 15 RT GK terms at this point, plus I'll have the 5 Paladins.

-Pax