Chosen VS Noise Marines

[peter.cosgrove]

Taking a look at CSM specifically how Noise Marines compare to Chosen.

The first thing I am looking at is number of attacks. Both Chosen and Noise Marines have 2 attacks base. Both have to give up their Bolter for a chainsword. Ok. so even there.

The statline is the same. So even there.

The cost is interesting. Noise marines are cheaper than Chosen. 15 points a model for Noise Marines, 16 for Chosen. 75 points for 5 Noise Marines, 80 for Chosen. 5 Points is a LOT.

The Chosen Champion vs the Noise Marine. Both have the same options. 

The only diff. that benefits Chosen is the Leadership. Chosen have 1 more point of leadership. This naturally brings up the conversation of low model units vs high model units. High model units 10/15/20 models, point for point, have more need for leadership vs low model units of 5 models. This comes into effect when you try to balance a 10 model unit against 2 5 model units.

Now. a specific comparison relatively unique to chosen vs noise marines. Combi Bolter vs Sonic Blaster. Combi Bolter is 2 points, Sonic Blaster is 4 points. Combi Bolter is rapid 2, 4 shots in 12" range but only 2 shots in 24" range. Sonic Blaster is Assault 3, 3 shots in 24 inch range. To get either both the Chosen and Noise Marines have to give up the chainsword to get them.

Chosen with 2 combi bolters and rest chainswords is 84 points. Noise marines with 2 Sonic Blasters and rest chainswords is 83 points. Both would get the same amount of attacks in fight phase. 15 Attacks at S4.

At 24" range Noise marines would get 6 shots, Chosen would get 4 shots. At 12" range Chosen would get 11 shots, Noise marines would get 9 shots.

For 85 points the Noise marines can get 8 shots at 24" range and 12 shots at 12" range with 14 attacks at S4 by giving the Noise Marine Champion a Combi Bolter/Chainsword.

To compare this, a Khorne zerker squad with just BP's/Combi Bolter on the Champion and chainswords would get 2 shots at 24", 8 shots at 12", but 16/32 attacks at S5 for 82 points. 

You know, the benefit of taking CSM in the past was being able to take a chainsword for free, CSM used to come base with Bolter/BP/Chainsword/Frag/Krak. Having to pick and choose makes it hard.

[peter.cosgrove]

I need to fill exactly 86 points. Sadly at that exact number taking chosen with 3 combi bolters seems the best, because the KZ only other option is either Chain Axes or plasma pistols.

86 points would be 6 shots at 24", 14 shots at 12" and 14 attacks at S4.

[WestRider]

27 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

You know, the benefit of taking CSM in the past was being able to take a chainsword for free, CSM used to come base with Bolter/BP/Chainsword/Frag/Krak. Having to pick and choose makes it hard.

It's particularly frustrating because Grey Hunters still can do that.

[Guest]

What legion are you running? The legion traits make a big difference on the Chosen Vs Noise Marine debate. 

You were comparing Sonic Blasters to Combi-bolters. Not really a fair comparison. I will note that Sonic Blasters have the strong point of being Assault weapons, not rapid fire, so they can move and fire more effectively. Sonic Blasters, and many other noise marine weapons, deny cover as well. 

If running Iron Warriors, the Cover Denial of the legion trait nerfs Noise Marines, in my opinion. 

If running Black Legion, the legion ability to advance and treat rapid fire weapons as assault weapons, is a huge boon for bolters and other rapid fire weapons, which also nerfs natural assault weapons, like sonic blasters. 

If running a Renegade chapter, the legion ability to charge after advancing is a huge boon for assault weapons, like sonic blasters. 

The other chapters care less. Though World Eaters notably can't field any Noise Marines. 

 

The other big thing for Chosen is that they are able to be marked with any deity, while Noise Marines must follow slaanesh. Matters for a few of the stratagems, and if you any marked characters in the army. 

[peter.cosgrove]

ya. only play Alpha Legion in 8th E. -1 to ballistic is the best defense currently in the game. As long as everyone is going to keep playing the meta of integrating IG units with 4+ ballistic skill, making them hit on a 5+ takes half their points away.

[peter.cosgrove]

You make a lot of good points regarding synergy, some very good points.

[peter.cosgrove]

Noise marines are cheaper, if only they could take chainswords in exchange for their bolt pistol instead of their boltgun.

Actually, what is really needed is a codex that designates Noise Marines as troop choices, as they have done for Plague marines in the Death Guard, and Rubric Marines for Thousand Sons.

That would mean being able to fully kit 6 5 model squads of Noise Marines with full Sonic Blasters/Doom Sirens/Blastmasters and just advance/shoot forward on turn 1 for really only about 75+22+16+20 times 6. so 143 is 858 points. That's a hard amount of threat density for any shooter to deal with. Put them into 3 Rhinos for the 3" bonus distance and some protection against the seize. 

[peter.cosgrove]

6 Blastmasters at assault D6 36" range, 6 Doom Sirens at Assault D6 8" range and 24 Sonic Blasters at Assault 3, 24" range. 72+ average 21 shots at 24" range plus the average 21 hits at 8" range. 93 shots. You might take out a cheap 30 model tarpit with that.

[peter.cosgrove]

The thing that sets them apart is the 2 attacks.. 2 attacks for a shooty troop choice. That's awesome.

[Guest]

4 minutes ago, peter.cosgrove said:

ya. only play Alpha Legion in 8th E. -1 to ballistic is the best defense currently in the game. As long as everyone is going to keep playing the meta of integrating IG units with 4+ ballistic skill, making them hit on a 5+ takes half their points away.

I suppose. Not really my cup of tea, but it does look compeditive. 

 

1 minute ago, peter.cosgrove said:

Noise marines are cheaper, if only they could take chainswords in exchange for their bolt pistol instead of their boltgun.

Actually, what is really needed is a codex that designates Noise Marines as troop choices, as they have done for Plague marines in the Death Guard, and Rubric Marines for Thousand Sons.

That would mean being able to fully kit 6 5 model squads of Noise Marines with full Sonic Blasters/Doom Sirens/Blastmasters and just advance/shoot forward on turn 1 for really only about 75+22+16+20 times 6. so 143 is 858 points. That's a hard amount of threat density for any shooter to deal with. Put them into 3 Rhinos for the 3" bonus distance and some protection against the seize. 

Noise Marines are Troops if you run Emperor's Children. Just like Berzerkers are Troops if you run World Eaters. This is in the Chaos Index and the FAQ says it remains true despite not being directly stated in the codex. 

 

[peter.cosgrove]

Ya, but wheres all the special goo. Get your own codex and you get all the goo that goes along with it. No point in just running as troops w/o the goo.

[peter.cosgrove]

I mean.. come on.. Death Guard Helbrutes.. FTW? If I had the plague marines and the poxwalkers I would be playing them instead of trying to mix/match the land raider/predator for the lascannon goodness.