SM Hunter

[Guest]

Why is this tank so cheap?

 

A Hunter is 80pts

A pred with twin lascannon 130pts

When comparing the two, the hunter has 1 less shot, but it re-rolls failed hits, has +1 Toughness and +12" of range. The hunter is also +1 to hit vs models with FLY (no penalty if they lack FLY). The Hunter is also substancially cheaper.

 

Kinda feels like GW's having trouble selling the kit...model just has really great rules this time around.

[WestRider]

It's more that most of the other Rhino-based Tanks are overpriced. I mean, just comparing base chassis costs, the Predator is 10 points more, but the Hunter has an extra point of Toughness. The Stalker is only 5 points cheaper for the base hull, but then it has to pay for its guns on top of that.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, WestRider said:

It's more that most of the other Rhino-based Tanks are overpriced. 

Doesn't seem to be the case, though. A Pred with Twin Las, and 2x las sponsons is pretty comparable to a Devastator Squad with 4x lascannons. The Vindicator being 125pts also seems fairly priced. Whirlwind is fair too. Stalker seems iffy, given the penalty to hit non-flyers and higher point tag, but after playing a few games against necron T6 Quantum Shielding vehicles, and this, too, seems like a good unit for the cost (against the right opponents). 

Hunter just seems really cheap. It's possible that the lower max damage is what is driving the cost down on this unit. I suppose it's comparable to a 5-man tactical squad with 1x lascannon.

Hmm...

[SPaceORK]

Would you pay 80 points for a Las cannon? Cause that's what it is basically.  For 165 you get 4 las cannons out of a dev squad.

All rhino chassis are overpriced for what they do.

 

[Guest]

4 hours ago, SPaceORK said:

Would you pay 80 points for a Las cannon? Cause that's what it is basically.  For 165 you get 4 las cannons out of a dev squad.

All rhino chassis are overpriced for what they do.

 

I'd pay 90pts for 5x space marines with a lascannon. So 80pts seems like a steal. 

[Ish]

The Hunter is a very reliable single lascannon on a decently durable frame. That’s it though. It’s a single reliable shot each shooting phase... Compared to every other Heavy Support slot unit available, it just doesn’t bring enough to the table to overcome that flaw: one shot.

A Tactical Squad (which most Marine players will have 2-4 of anyway) with a multi-melta or a lascannon does this job. One Devastator with a lascannon picking a separate target from the rest of his squad does this job. A Predator, a Dreadnought, a Stormtalon, a Land Raider... So many other choices in the list do the same job plus something else.

[SPaceORK]

5 hours ago, paxmiles said:

I'd pay 90pts for 5x space marines with a lascannon. So 80pts seems like a steal. 

And neither one really does anything. At least the marines are troop choices.

[Guest]

I suppose

[SPaceORK]

1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

I suppose

Look I dont mean to be a downer on your opinion of the tank but you gota look at its efficiency in relation to its points and the other options.

Is it cheap at 80 points? Yea. Is it cheaper than a tac squad with similar weapons? Yea.

But what are you actually getting? Your getting a single shot platform that literally costs 80 points for its, albeit reliable, single shot.

Compare to the tac squad, in which marine bodies are already overcosted. For the same cost you get a las cannon and 5-9 bolter shots. So not only do you have the Las cannon that cannon that can fire at something, but the bolters that can fire at another, more appropriate target. So already it beats the hunter on shots per point and flexibility against multiple targets. And they are troops. Which is super useful in an army that lacks bodies. It also doesn't even do the job of filling out a heavy slot for detachments very well. You have cheaper or more efficient options. So when looking at this tank it's not how cheap it is. It's how good everything else is at doing its job better or the same, but able to do other things as well. You ideally dont want a unit that does one job in a marine army unless it does that job very well.

 

[Guest]

Nah, I was agreeing with you. Your logic is sound.

I just think it's really cheap for what it is, but as you point out, it really doesn't do much. 

[WestRider]

13 minutes ago, paxmiles said:

I just think it's really cheap for what it is, but as you point out, it really doesn't do much. 

Sometimes, you do actually get what you pay for.

[Ish]

They’re not even very good at their intended purpose: Anti-Aircraft shooting. Is their a Flyer (or even just a vehicle with Fly) that a Hunter can kill with its single missile? 

80 Points to knock one Jetbike or Land Speeder out of the sky isn’t all that useful.

[WestRider]

6 minutes ago, Ish said:

They’re not even very good at their intended purpose: Anti-Aircraft shooting. Is their a Flyer (or even just a vehicle with Fly) that a Hunter can kill with its single missile? 

80 Points to knock one Jetbike or Land Speeder out of the sky isn’t all that useful.

That's a general issue with 8th Ed. (and, actually, it was an issue in 7th to a lesser extent as well). Leaving aside Super-Heavies, there are essentially no Weapons that can one-shot anything but the very lightest of Vehicles, and none that can do it reliably. I can see how it works out better from a game balance perspective, but it still feels odd that a solid hit from an Anti-Tank Weapon has much more chance of leaving even something like a fairly ramshackle jeep (i.e. a Warbuggy) functional than rendering it ineffective.

[Ish]

I wouldn’t mind “one hit kills” being rare, if it weren’t for the fact that “love taps” were so common.

The Hunter’s Skyspear Missile Launcher is a 60” Heavy 1 9/–3/D6 weapon. Yes, it hits targets with < Fly > on a 2+ that rerolls misses... That’s a 97.222% accuracy, which is phenomenal. But most Flyers are T7 or T8, so it wounds on a 3+, which ain’t bad... But then it has the exact same chance at doing 1 Damage as it does 6 Damage.

If shooting at something like a Valkyrie (which seems like a good baseline for a “real” Flyer) we’re looking at 2.835 Damage on average. Joe Average Tactical Squad Marine with a missile launcher will do 3.111 Damage with a krak missile.

Call me crazy, but a dedicated purpose-built Anti-Aircraft vehicle should be better at killing aircraft than an infantryman with a general purpose anti-armor gun.

The Skyspear Missile Launcher needs to have its Damage increased against < Fly > units. Say something like “roll 2d6 and keep highest” or even 2d3.

[WestRider]

41 minutes ago, Ish said:

I wouldn’t mind “one hit kills” being rare, if it weren’t for the fact that “love taps” were so common.

The Hunter’s Skyspear Missile Launcher is a 60” Heavy 1 9/–3/D6 weapon. Yes, it hits targets with < Fly > on a 2+ that rerolls misses... That’s a 97.222% accuracy, which is phenomenal. But most Flyers are T7 or T8, so it wounds on a 3+, which ain’t bad... But then it has the exact same chance at doing 1 Damage as it does 6 Damage.

If shooting at something like a Valkyrie (which seems like a good baseline for a “real” Flyer) we’re looking at 2.835 Damage on average. Joe Average Tactical Squad Marine with a missile launcher will do 3.111 Damage with a krak missile.

Call me crazy, but a dedicated purpose-built Anti-Aircraft vehicle should be better at killing aircraft than an infantryman with a general purpose anti-armor gun.

The Skyspear Missile Launcher needs to have its Damage increased against < Fly > units. Say something like “roll 2d6 and keep highest” or even 2d3.

I actually feel like a lot of the d6s should be 2d3, or even d3+3. Both for damage and for number of hits with formerly Blast/Template Weapons.

More specifically, the fact that so much dedicated AA fire is S7 is kind of weak sauce to me, too. A Hydra or a Stalker needs an average of seven Turns of uninterrupted firing to drop that same Valkyrie.

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Ish said:

They’re not even very good at their intended purpose: Anti-Aircraft shooting. Is their a Flyer (or even just a vehicle with Fly) that a Hunter can kill with its single missile? 

80 Points to knock one Jetbike or Land Speeder out of the sky isn’t all that useful.

No...Jetbikes and land speeders is not the intended enemy for a Hunter (or other AA unit). Intended target has the FLYER battlefield role. So like Stormravens, Tigersharks, or Crimson Hunters. And more so, intended enemy has penalties to hit for at least the reason of being "hard to hit" and maybe has other penalties to hit. Eldar in particular can have a very nasty -3 hit modifier.

As for taking them out with 1 missile, no, that's not the point. The point would be 1 reliable hit against an enemy that is otherwise very difficult to hit with standard options. With a -2 penalty to hit, the Hunter still hits flyers 75% of the time (+1 bs and re-rolls hits). Preds/Devastators will hit the same target only 33% of the time (which still hits, but is likely wasted firepower if there is another target on the table). 

And if you only have 1 or 2 units that reliably can hit the enemy flyers, the opponent will focus fire the Hunters instead of shooting at your other forces. So in this respect, they can become shields.

Hunter's ideal target is also T7-8 and 3+ (or better) armor save. Depending on your list, such a foe can be a real pain to deal with. 

[Guest]

Anyway, at 80pts each, I think they warrant consideration as just LoS blockers for advancing infantry. T8, 11 wounds, Smoke Launchers, and a 3+ save. That's cheaper than an Imperial Bunker and it can move.

I recall in 4th, I ran a lot of rhinos that just blocked line of sight (because rhinos were called "steel coffins" for a reason).

[SPaceORK]

It's best use is a t8, 11w, mobile los blocker.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, SPaceORK said:

It's best use is a t8, 11w, mobile los blocker.

Could be fun to paint them as castle walls...

[SPaceORK]

1 minute ago, paxmiles said:

Could be fun to paint them as castle walls...

Use the vindicators dozer blade, sculpt the castle wall top bits. I think they are wide enough that the dozer blade could form a wall.

[Ish]

Or use a Rhino.

[SPaceORK]

7 minutes ago, Ish said:

Or use a Rhino.

Well yea.. but this one has a rocket!

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, Ish said:

Or use a Rhino.

Fair point. Let's see, rhino is 72pts. It has the self-repair and +2" of movement. Hunter for 8pts more has +1 wound and +1 toughness.

I guess it would depend on your list. If you needed the speed, tight on heavy slots, or you actually needed to transport something, the Rhino would be better.

Hunter is certainly the more durable wall...

[Ish]

Rhino with a hunter-killer missile, 78 Points. Shoots almost as well as the Hunter (once), blocks just as much space, and can do something useful like transport a Troops unit. Said Troops unit could be a Tactical Squad with a missile launcher, which shoots better than the Hunter... 

The reason you don’t see very many Hunters on the table is that they are very bad at their job.

[Guest]

@IshAre the Primaris Marines too tall to hide behind rhinos as they advance? I know their Interceptors would be due to their flying pose, but not sure on the regular primaris marines. What about the Aggressors?

I know you were having trouble getting your marines downfield.