Exorcists Assault Centurions?

[Guest]

Been using them with my Exorcists. I keep chapter trait coasting, as I haven't found a good fit yet. I was using DA, but I've fallen in love with these centurions...I was using them together with allies, but I'm very sick of having so many books to keep track of.

 

Anyway, how should this unit function in the army?  I've been using them 3-man, with chappy and land raider accompaniment, and they've been, well, they've been complete overkill. I started fielding the unit to cope with imperial knights and titans, but I haven't faced those enough times to rationalize the unit. Is it reasonable to field an anti-titan unit when you rarely face any titans?

 

At present, I'm trying to figure out how to use them so they are a bit less overkill (as in, cheaper), but I like the unit.

 

For more specifics:

Assault Centurions (3, all TL flamers and hurricanes) 190

Chaplain (TDA, Combi-melta, and usually an improve melee weapon, like teeth of terra) 125+

Land Raider Redeemer (MM) 250

Total: 565+ Fielded in  1500-2000pt armies

 

I know, complaining about overkill is silly, but it matters if your trying to make the army "perfect." I want the unit to be awesome, but not too awesome. I am an unreasonable person, sometimes.

[Guest]

Hmm...For examples:

 

Last game, opponent took Belakor. Seemed like a good target for this unit, so LRR advanced for two turns, sacrificing a rhino "wall" section to get there. Models got out and into charge range. Belakor died to the hurricane bolter fire combined with the fire from my backfield devastators. Centurions stood with nothing to assault, got back into the redeemer the next turn and moved onwards. Redeemer was eventurally destroyed (lucky dread MM), but unit got out and preformed a disordered charge against a dread and his compatriots, and destroyed the dread and two other involved parties.

 

Another game against Mech Astra. Battle cannons and rending punishers, but no legit AT. LRR waded into melee range for most of the game, unit got out and destroyed three russes, then looked up at the sky and asked the god emperor, why? Why build such a great unit with nothing to face it?...

[WestRider]

I'd probably drop the Chaplain, but upgrade them to Meltagun/Frag Launchers. Chaplains are kind of in a weird place where they don't have any Units that they really fit with well. Stuff is either still too weak to really do much even with the re-rolls, or massively overkill against just about anything once you add in Zealot.

 

Meltaguns plus the regular Attacks from 3 of them gives decent odds on one-shotting a knight, and they'll pretty much waste any Super-Heavy that doesn't have a special CCW.

 

Chaplains are also kind of a bad place to go for upgraded CCWs, too. Because you don't get a rebate for the Power Maul, you're basically paying 15 Points more for whatever other Weapon you pick up than, say, a Captain would. He over-pays for his Terminator Armour, too, shelling out as much as the difference between a regular Captain and a Terminator Captain, but not upgrading from a CCW to a Power Weapon. If you are going to run a Chaplain, just stick with Power/Artificier Armour, and maybe Meltabombs.

 

On  your examples, Be'Lakor isn't actually all that tough when he's not taking full advantage of Shrouded for 2+ Cover AND either Swooping or rocking Invisibility. He's definitely a case where these are going to be overkill.

 

Similar story with Russes. They're very weak against Assaults anyhow. Just a Tactical Squad with a PowerFist Sergeant and Krak Grenades Charging that Russ Squadron might well drop two of the three on the Charge.

[Guest]

Ah, recalled another one. Faced BA. Melta heavy, yeah, they destroyed the LRR. Unit didn't die. T5 with multi-wounds is pretty darn impressive, especially when most of the melta weapon just got focused into a LR. Anyway, disordered charge against 7-man BA assault squad, Dante, and a furioso dread. Completely butchered them. Dante's been screwed since his weapon was ruled unwieldy...and BA FNP does nothing against assault centurions.

[Guest]

I'd probably drop the Chaplain, but upgrade them to Meltagun/Frag Launchers. Chaplains are kind of in a weird place where they don't have any Units that they really fit with well. Stuff is either still too weak to really do much even with the re-rolls, or massively overkill against just about anything once you add in Zealot.

 

Meltaguns plus the regular Attacks from 3 of them gives decent odds on one-shotting a knight, and they'll pretty much waste any Super-Heavy that doesn't have a special CCW.

 

Chaplains are also kind of a bad place to go for upgraded CCWs, too. Because you don't get a rebate for the Power Maul, you're basically paying 15 Points more for whatever other Weapon you pick up than, say, a Captain would. He over-pays for his Terminator Armour, too, shelling out as much as the difference between a regular Captain and a Terminator Captain, but not upgrading from a CCW to a Power Weapon. If you are going to run a Chaplain, just stick with Power/Artificier Armour, and maybe Meltabombs.

 

On  your examples, Be'Lakor isn't actually all that tough when he's not taking full advantage of Shrouded for 2+ Cover AND either Swooping or rocking Invisibility. He's definitely a case where these are going to be overkill.

 

Similar story with Russes. They're very weak against Assaults anyhow. Just a Tactical Squad with a PowerFist Sergeant and Krak Grenades Charging that Russ Squadron might well drop two of the three on the Charge.

I'm well aware all the examples are lacking opponents. That's the issue, I'm not facing opponents with worthwhile targets for this unit. I'm debating shaving down or replacing the unit due to the lack of opponents worth assaulting. Or, perhaps it's just a matter of having them in that one game where it really matters...

 

Melta seems silly on the assault centurions. It just adds to the overkill potential. Ideally, unit makes assault....what, with being assault centurions and all. The chappy has the combi-melta mostly because I started with DA, so I wanted to keep the option that he'd DS solo turn 1 and pop his TL meltagun (DW are TL with all weapons on the drop). Right now, the model just looks too amazing to not field (really outdid myself). I may put this chappy in another unit, though.

 

Frag launchers have no value if also rocking the LRR or LRC, as the frag assault launchers make those lacking. If I drop the TDA character, I could fit them in a stock LR, which would make frag launchers more practical. It is nice to have the ranged option, even if I rarely use it. Anyway, hurricanes are glued in place (flamers aren't).

 

I am considering the Storm Raven, as it's 50pts cheaper than a LR. My model really needs work, but it's an option. I'm not a huge fan of the SR, but I do own one. Lately I've been just using volume fire to destroy aircraft without any issues.

 

I suppose I could drop the chappy, or move him to another unit. In general, I like the chappy and very much think he adds to the army and that unit. I agree that the chappy has no obvious units to add to, but I've found them amazing in most units.

[VonVilkee]

Most chapter tactics will not benefit them particularly well. I'd prolly go with ultra Marines for the assault range help that one time they are looking at a little long into cover or something.

 

With ally transport being allowed I'm toying with the idea of three in a Pod with some Melta... Who needs to assault just being scary can be better!

[WestRider]

The main reason for the Melta is that it gives them a bit of a boost against the things (like Knights), where losing the Chaplain's Re-rolls brings them down below the point of reliability. It also gives them the option to try to do things like pop an opposing Land Raider in the Shooting Phase, and then Charge the chewies that pop out.

 

I forgot about the Frag Launchers on the Crusader/Redeemer. Good point. It's just been ages since I used a Crusader with anything but Hammernators in it, and they don't care about Frags because they're Unwieldy.

[Guest]

The main reason for the Melta is that it gives them a bit of a boost against the things (like Knights), where losing the Chaplain's Re-rolls brings them down below the point of reliability. It also gives them the option to try to do things like pop an opposing Land Raider in the Shooting Phase, and then Charge the chewies that pop out.

 

I forgot about the Frag Launchers on the Crusader/Redeemer. Good point. It's just been ages since I used a Crusader with anything but Hammernators in it, and they don't care about Frags because they're Unwieldy.

Knights are actually very, very weak to things like these assault centurions. Example, 3-man cent squad has 4 base attacks, 7 with paired melee weapons, 10 on the charge. Against the WS4 knights, half hit, for 5 hits. They are both initiative 4. Of those 5 hits, S9+2d6 pen for each attack, which grants pretty decent odds at 5 HP lost, or more. The knight's return swings might kill the unit, but this unit is only 190pts to the knight's 400+.

 

Really, chappy is for things like stompas, which need more swings to connect. Other bit is that I was using DA, which have a 3-wound chappy that strikes at I:5, making it a more impressive addition to the unit.

 

As for transports and assaulting the contents, truth of the matter is that the land raider is worth assaulting with this unit. The contents probably aren't worth it. LRR does have a MM, if really needed.

 

On a side note, using the LRR instead of the LRC mostly because my LRC's model needs work.

 

Most chapter tactics will not benefit them particularly well. I'd prolly go with ultra Marines for the assault range help that one time they are looking at a little long into cover or something.

 

With ally transport being allowed I'm toying with the idea of three in a Pod with some Melta... Who needs to assault just being scary can be better!

 

Best ones are the BT chapter tactics, which are awesome, save the loss of libbies. The loss of libbies is two fold, as it denies them the cheapest HQ in the codex and denies access to psychic powers, with the formed being the bigger loss in my opinion. I will note that if I ran BT, I would field tactical squads and scouts, not crusader squads, as I'm not fielding black templars, just using their tactics.

 

I may end up with BT chapter tactics and taking psyker allies, but it does defeat the purpose of switching to C:SM to have less total books to haul around...

 

Iron hands or Salamanders' are close seconds. Free MC weapon on each character is impressive, with the re-roll against flamer wounds not being useless. The 6+FNP and IWND on vehicles isn't game breaking, but has merit.

 

I've done imperial fists, which don't aid the above unit, but they really make for some interesting tactical options. I actually fielded a 10-man dev squad, split them at the start, and had the character with a plasma pistol go in a rhino on a tank hunting mission - actually pretty effective with tank hunters.

 

No interest in white scars or raven guard. Ultra marines are a headache army, having just one more thing that needs to be kept track of.

 

Anyway, as it stands, I'll either be salamanders or templars, with a lean towards salamanders just so I don't have to throw out my psyker models....

[VonVilkee]

Sallies are great for army overall I was just thinking exorcists seem more Tactical than relic making.

 

You can master craft pistols and get rerolls in combat too. Take Vulkan and combi Melta Sargents get a reroll on the Melta and Bolter pieces, and then can master craft their Pistol or combat knife! Devestator centurions can make better use of split fire as a sally too. Take some grav boys then equip the sarge with twin Las omni scope and the master craft the missile Launcher great anti tank or anti flyer add on being able to split his fire.

[Guest]

Sallies are great for army overall I was just thinking exorcists seem more Tactical than relic making.

 

You can master craft pistols and get rerolls in combat too. Take Vulkan and combi Melta Sargents get a reroll on the Melta and Bolter pieces, and then can master craft their Pistol or combat knife! Devestator centurions can make better use of split fire as a sally too. Take some grav boys then equip the sarge with twin Las omni scope and the master craft the missile Launcher great anti tank or anti flyer add on being able to split his fire.

Your right, exorcists are more tactical than relic making. Ultra marines are very close to ideal, but they present 2 key issues: 1, they have lots of awesome special characters. 2, their chapter tactics mean keeping track of a bunch of other stuff. Plan is to not take special characters, so this one is just too tempting...

 

Not going with the special characters. Technically, Exorcists have a FW special character if I really want one. C:SM looks like it has the right number of things should I want to make my own "special character." That DA codex is bad for not fielding special characters, pretty much forced into fielding special characters to make the army function.

 

I do like the imperial fists, very much so, but they change my tactics too much. I find myself taking devs squads I wouldn't normally field.

 

In general, just about all the chapter tactics bug me because they seem overpowered. We really don't pay anything for them, as I don't think they are reflected in the point cost per model. I suppose ultra marines have the best tactics for not using them....argh, too many good choices...

[VonVilkee]

Short of abusive builds specifically formulated to eek every last bit out chapter tactics they are fine. Marines are generally good at everything but amazing at very little. Being able to play to what makes your force better than your opponents every time is where it is at and that is where chapter tactics shine.

 

Personally I've been running sentinels of terra since that supplement released gives me a real good feeling for iron warriors. It bugs me on some level to be using the rules of those I should hate but they give this awesome feeling of the pent up rage that is unleashed at the point of a siege when action replaces preparation.

[Guest]

Short of abusive builds specifically formulated to eek every last bit out chapter tactics they are fine. Marines are generally good at everything but amazing at very little. Being able to play to what makes your force better than your opponents every time is where it is at and that is where chapter tactics shine.

Well, I think marines are one of the better tactical armies. It isn't just the rules, the size and shape of the models are often better for tactical uses than other armies.

 

On subject with tactics, I like the hurricane bolters and TL flamers on the centurions for this reason. I'm a fan of toolbox units, so a unit that is designed for AT, but also functions in a AP role is pretty awesome.

[Guest]

Hmmm...sort of a side note on that LRR. Was just thinking how I pretty much never get a chance to use those flamestorm cannons. Can't snap them and can't fire through my own units, so they make for a lame assault transport. Typically, I move 6-12" per turn, use the non-machine spirit shot to fire the TL assault cannon and the machine spirit to fire the MM.

 

That said, was just thinking that I don't think I've ever had anyone assault my LRR....I mean with the stock LR, they tend to assault it, even with single MB units of SM, but they often keep their distance with the redeemer. Maybe daemon princes?...yeah, I think daemons have assaulted it, and tyranid MCs. Still, an interesting psychological feature of the LRR.

[WestRider]

Knights are actually very, very weak to things like these assault centurions. Example, 3-man cent squad has 4 base attacks, 7 with paired melee weapons, 10 on the charge. Against the WS4 knights, half hit, for 5 hits. They are both initiative 4. Of those 5 hits, S9+2d6 pen for each attack, which grants pretty decent odds at 5 HP lost, or more. The knight's return swings might kill the unit, but this unit is only 190pts to the knight's 400+.

 

Really, chappy is for things like stompas, which need more swings to connect. Other bit is that I was using DA, which have a 3-wound chappy that strikes at I:5, making it a more impressive addition to the unit.

 

As for transports and assaulting the contents, truth of the matter is that the land raider is worth assaulting with this unit. The contents probably aren't worth it. LRR does have a MM, if really needed.

 

On a side note, using the LRR instead of the LRC mostly because my LRC's model needs work.

If the contents of the Land Raider aren't worth Assaulting, then your Opponent is using their Land Raider wrong.

 

And yeah, I ran that same math for the Charge vs. a Knight. If you go like that, the "average" result is killing the Knight on the second round, at the same time as it finishes off the last of your Cents. With the Meltas, you've got pretty good odds of dropping it on the Charge, and still having at least one Cent left, which is still a pretty significant threat to most Vehicles and takes quite a bit of firepower to drop, for a single model.

[Guest]

If the contents of the Land Raider aren't worth Assaulting, then your Opponent is using their Land Raider wrong.

Well, I mean in regards to the assault centurions.

 

My opponents often use LRs wrong, though to be fair, most of the time, my opponent doesn't field one because they can't figure out how to make them work.

[Guest]

Chaplains are also kind of a bad place to go for upgraded CCWs, too. Because you don't get a rebate for the Power Maul, you're basically paying 15 Points more for whatever other Weapon you pick up than, say, a Captain would. He over-pays for his Terminator Armour, too, shelling out as much as the difference between a regular Captain and a Terminator Captain, but not upgrading from a CCW to a Power Weapon.

Black Templars are the only ones whose chappies are probably worth it. The maul isn't normally that great, but add rending in challenges and it really isn't that bad a weapon.

 

Argh...I may have to go with templars. I do really like their special rules, but I hate the loss of psykers. Maybe allies...

 

Anyway, I am going to replace the LRR with a Storm Raven. Working on the model. Going to re-do the front so it looks like a Death's Head Transport from the Rifts RPG, but then I'll add the horns for my Exorcists theme. Not sure on the wings, as the death's head doesn't have any, perhaps I'll add smoke or something on the sides other than the things, to be wings for LOS reasons. All my models have far too many conversions....

 

As for the chappy, not sure. I want to include the one I have, but I don't think I'm going to field it with this unit. I agree, it adds too much cost to the unit that doesn't really need it against most opponents. I suppose I could field the chappy model as a different model in the army. Like a chapter master, who just happens to be dressed as a chappy....

 

Actually a good question, if the chapter were lead by a chaplain, would you use the chappy profile or the chapter master profile? Perhaps it would be wrong to lead the chapter with a chaplain?

[Guest]

Split the chappy chapter master question into another thread.

 

Death's Head Transport Exorcists Storm raven is coming along nicely. That said, I think I'm going with both hurricanes and cyclones, so it really won't be a cheaper transport...lol. Might not do cyclones, but Death's Head Transport has side turrets that would look good as hurricane bolters. Dunno, might not. We'll see.

 

Back to the centurions. Barring the cash cost of 3-pack centurions, would a 4th member added to the squad be better than a chaplain? Was just thinking that I've got 12 slots in either the redeemer or raven, each member being 3 spaces, so I could just field 4-man instead of adding other ICs. Let's see, bumps squad to 250pts, adds 3 attacks on the charge. So 10 attacks with re-rolls vs 13 attacks...MATH!

 

Assuming opponent WS4

10 swings, 5 hits, rerolls for 7.5 hits. Very likely also 7.5 glances/pens.

13 swings, 6.5 hits, no re-rolls, very likely also 6.5 pens.

 

Not quite the same, also not adding chappy swings to the mix. Still, chappy is 90pts minimum, with my TDA version being closer to 150. Adding another member is just 60pts. hmmm...I suppose both are still overkill.

 

On a side note, hurricanes on those centurions is pretty close to an abomination by itself. At the 12" mark, I have 18 TL bolter shots from a 3-man squad. They can also fire the flamers. It's a pretty crazy amount of firepower. For comparison, I'm hard pressed to get this many shots with any other SM unit (aside from centurion devs) at a comparable point cost.

[Guest]

Okay, going with ultramarines. Extra rules are a headache, but a turn of re-rolling 1s to hit is huge for me, as I love my plasma.

 

Think I should paint the ultra marine "u" on my models to avoid confusion, or would it just add to confusion to see two chapter markings on each model? Was thinking a small blue circle with a white "u" on the knee, while my chapter logo remains on the left shoulder pad, squad markings on the right.

 

On a side note, think I should steer clear of the special characters, or should I explore the options? I've already got an exorcists calgar, sicarius, cassius, chronus and telion from 5th (as well as a shrike, and a few others), all in various stages of completion.

 

Back to the Centurions, working on the SR to get them to the fight. Goal is an anti-flying daemon SR, as exorcists are supposed to be anti-daemon. That leaves me with Cyclone/Lascannon, plus the four storm strike missiles, should be enough to hinder most flying MCs. Hurricanes are also on the list. This does mean that I won't be saving points... actually 5pts more than the MM redeemer. Hmmm....might make the cyclone and hurricanes magnetic.

[Guest]

Okay, played a game without the assault centurions. Wow. I think I hate C:SM. I like those centurions, but I miss my DA codex. Might switch back...

[WestRider]

Well, you can always take Allies. Just pull the Chaplain, Cents, and a Scout Squad or whatever from C:SM and the rest from DA.

[VonVilkee]

He is trying to reduce the number of books he has to cart around too.

[WestRider]

Well, then I guess he needs to pick up a Tablet of some kind. Fewer options, fewer books, buying a tablet: pick one ;)

[Guest]

He is trying to reduce the number of books he has to cart around too.

That's part of it, the other bit is that sometimes I'd like to add "actual" allies and many events don't allow more than 2 detachments. Plus, I don't feel it's necessary to field 2 books to represent a single chapter (Maybe chaos, GW really limits their options with a single codex...).

 

For example, it would be fun (and very fluffy) to add GK to my Exorcists. That said, if I need DA and SM just to make exorcists, I can't really do this with only two detachments.

[Guest]

Okay, thought about it. Going to go with SM and Black Templars Chapter tactics. I can take allies if I want psykers, and my current libby models will become "GK" libbies. BT chapter tactics just fit too well.

 

DA codex is very lacking in certain areas, like AA, which will likely force me to include allies. Plus the FW Exorcists special character is C:SM, so by using DA I prevent myself from fielding him (even though he's never legal and barely viable...).

 

I don't plan to field crusader squads, not because they are lacking, but because they don't reflect my chapter. I will note that the BT get an advantage for the free character in the tactical and scout squads, while their crusader squad must upgrade to included one. BT chapter tactics benefit challenges, so this is a positive thing. Unsure on special characters.

 

Anyway, back to the centurions, chappy and transport.

 

Assault Centurions:

GG cup was an eye opener regarding my centurions (which I didn't bring because I haven't glued the flamers yet). Opponent had invisible units. This is the only situation I've found that warrants chappy and I really missed him.

 

3 assault cents, If forced to hit on 6s in assault, 10 attacks on the charge, roughly 1 hit. Sure, it likely wounds, but very tough win with only 1 wound. Chappy likely buffs it to 2 hits, which is still lacking, though the chappy adds 3 of his own, so likely 3 total hits and 1 wound if they've got storm shields. I am talking about invisible thunderwolf units...a nasty opponent, even if the rest of his army was largely inoperable. Chappy fearless does help them stay in combat, though in this case, opponent had S10 ap2/ap1 weapons, which centurions really can't cope with. Hmm... no solid solutions to invisibility in this case.

 

I suppose, I could look into the BT special character, Grimaldus, as he has an AoE zealot rule he can share with the army. If I engaged enough units into assault with the invisible death star, we could at least prevent them from further engaging my other army elements due to a sheer number of fearless models. Might work.

 

Anyway, if the target is an invisible vehicle, the chappy+centurions approach is golden, as getting that 1 hit is what matters (due to S9+armor bane...).

 

Not sure on the TL meltas vs TL flamers. I think if they arrive via storm raven, the meltas are likely more viable. I think the flamers are probably better if land raider embarked. If I do go with the SR, I might consider trying to remove the glued hurricanes for frag launchers.

 

Regarding the chappy:

If BT chapter tactics, I'll just take the Crozius arcanium (power maul) for the chappy. BT chapter tactics adds rending in challenges, which makes the maul a much more reasonable weapon. Melee ap really doesn't matter too much with the centurion unit. I'll keep the combi-melta, as my model really does look awesome. 126pts.

 

Transport

As for the transport, initially leaning towards storm raven, but I think I'd be better off with another unit in there (like scout marines and a dread).

 

Hmm...

[WestRider]

10 Attacks hitting on 6s with re-rolls is more like 3 Hits, maybe 4 with a bit of luck. Invisible ThunderWolves are still a major pain, tho.