Ruins

[Guest]

Came up the GG cup. Opponent was very about certain aspects of ruins despite me not being able to verify his conclusion with the book:

 

-Models not in ruins, but concealed by the ruin via LOS. As I read it, the 4+ cover save for ruins only applies to models actually in them. As difficult terrain, a model obscured by the difficult terrain at least 25%, but not in the difficult terrain, would have a 5+ cover save. As I read it, this is also true for vehicles, except the vehicle must both be within the ruin and obscured 25% to get the 4+ cover, a 5+ cover would be awarded if the vehicle was obscured by the ruin, but not in it. The picture shown on page 77 leaves this very vague, as the rhino pictured is likely within the ruin, but no mention is made in the example.

 

-Combined terrain features, like a ruin on a hill. My understanding is that the ruin itself grants cover, but the hill does not. The ruin is only the ruin (as in, the ruined building).

 

-Ruins with bases. As I read it, the ruins with bases and without bases is gone in 7th. It was there in 6th. The ruin is the broken building. The base is just difficult terrain. That said, seems like it generates huge confusion if I suggest that the base of the ruin and the ruin are different types of terrain.

 

PS: Captain A did his best, this was in the event rules to define terrain ahead of time. Opponent did not define, and I did not either. It was turn 1 before the issue arose. Opponent placed models on an open hill, next to some ruins.

[AbusePuppy]

#1: p.108, Ruins

"Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured."

 

#2: Entirely up to you an your opponent. There are no specific rules for handing "mixed" terrain pieces.

 

#3: Again, you and your opponent can decide this before the game; typically, however, pieces with a base (whether ruins, craters, forests, etc) use the entirety of the base to determine the boundaries of their effect.

[Guest]

#1: p.108, Ruins

"Models in ruins receive a 4+ cover save, regardless of whether or not they are 25% obscured."

 

#2: Entirely up to you an your opponent. There are no specific rules for handing "mixed" terrain pieces.

 

#3: Again, you and your opponent can decide this before the game; typically, however, pieces with a base (whether ruins, craters, forests, etc) use the entirety of the base to determine the boundaries of their effect.

Only confused with #1, completely agree with the others.

 

Example, my second game at the GGcup featured multiple instances where models not in the ruins, but obscured by the ruins were given cover saves. What is the cover save for a model not in the ruin? Page 108 does define "in" on the top left in the second bold paragraph:

 

"When one of the following rules refers to a model being 'in cover behind' a piece of terrain, this means that the models is at least 25% obscured by the scenery, and therefore eligible for a cover save (pg37). On the other hand, when one of the following rules refers to a model being 'in' a piece terrain, this means that the model, or some part of it, is actually standing on the piece of scenery, whether it is obscured from view or not."

 

As you quoted, to get the 4+ cover save, a model must be "in" the ruin. Models not in ruins, just obscured by the terrain are still eligible for a cover save, but not the ruins cover save.

 

Page 108, again, regarding difficult terrain, last sentence:

"Unless specifically noted otherwise, a model in cover behind difficult terrain has a 5+ cover save."

 

There is no note in the ruins rule to suggest models in cover behind ruins have a 4+ cover save, it does specify that they must be in the ruin.

 

As for vehicles, this is where it get's murky thanks to that example box...

 

The second bullet on page 77:

 

"Vehicles are not obscured simply for being inside terrain such as woods or ruins. The 25% rule takes precedence."

 

I can keep going, but the language on page 77 does not suggest that vehicles get the ruins 4+ cover unless they are both "in" the ruin and 25% obscured. The big confusion is that example box, which doesn't show a large enough photo to determine if the rhino is "in" the ruin, or merely obscured by the ruin. The forth bullet does specify that vehicle is given the same cover save that a non-vehicle would receive.

[AbusePuppy]

As you quoted, to get the 4+ cover save, a model must be "in" the ruin. Models not in ruins, just obscured by the terrain are still eligible for a cover save, but not the ruins cover save.

 

Models that are not within a ruin will not benefit from the ruin piece's special "doesn't need 25% obscurement" rule, that is true- however, if they are obscured by the ruin in the usual fashion they will still receive a cover save. The rulebook does not explicitly specify this cover save, although it would seem a bit strange to make it different from the save the piece normally provides, and all of the potentially-applicable terrain types (walls, barricades, rubble, etc) are 4+ saves anyways.

[Guest]

Models that are not within a ruin will not benefit from the ruin piece's special "doesn't need 25% obscurement" rule, that is true- however, if they are obscured by the ruin in the usual fashion they will still receive a cover save. The rulebook does not explicitly specify this cover save, although it would seem a bit strange to make it different from the save the piece normally provides, and all of the potentially-applicable terrain types (walls, barricades, rubble, etc) are 4+ saves anyways.

The book does say that if it doesn't specifically specify a cover save, that the save is 5+.

 

Didn't want to have to quote the whole thing, but here:

 

Page 108, under the heading: Difficult Terrain

 

Difficult terrain slows down models wishing to move through it. It includes areas of rubble, woods, ruins, rocky outcrops, boggy ground, low walls, tanglewire, barricades, steep hills, streams and other shallow water, as well as terrain features that combine several of these types. Unless specifically noted otherwise, a model in cover behind difficult terrain has a 5+ cover save.

Ruins are on this list. Ruins do not specifically note that models in cover behind them are given a 4+, so they default to the 5+ as listed.

 

It also notes the possibility that some terrain features may combine types of terrain, though as mentioned, that is up to you and your opponent.

[Vaktathi]

Given how awkward many Ruins terrain pieces are (often without footprints or with extremely confusing footprints), I usually just give my opponents a 4+ cover if behind ruins, I don't think I've ever seen someone try to play it as 5+ for being obsured by ruins but not actually in it, though that may just be convention. The terrain rules in general in this edition are somewhat...wanting however.

[Guest]

Given how awkward many Ruins terrain pieces are (often without footprints or with extremely confusing footprints), I usually just give my opponents a 4+ cover if behind ruins, I don't think I've ever seen someone try to play it as 5+ for being obsured by ruins but not actually in it, though that may just be convention. The terrain rules in general in this edition are somewhat...wanting however.

Funny you say this, the more I read the terrain rule, the more I note how perfectly simple they are.

 

Basically, the terrain cover rules are as follows:

 

All difficult terrain grants a 5+ cover to models obscured by it at least 25%.

-Ruins are difficult terrain which grant a 4+ to models actually standing on them, even if not obscured.

-Vehicles need to be 25% obscured even if terrain normally doesn't require it.

-Vehicles gain +1 cover the firer is firing into an arc which the vehicle's facing is completely hidden.

-Other terrain may have other special rules.

 

End

 

As for the ruin footprints, that it something from last edition. It would be best to classify it as the terrain type represented. So if the footprint is modeled as rubble, then call it difficult terrain, which will grant cover if it obscures the model, as above.

 

I will also note that thinking of an entire terrain feature as a single type of terrain is also gone from the rules. It is perfectly reasonable to make a forested ruin with a moat (not unlike a WHFB castle). The moat, ruins and forest are difficult terrain, therefore grant a 5+ cover to those obscured. The ruin grants a 4+ cover to those standing on it. The book does note they they only have to be partially in a ruin to count, so a model touching multiple types of terrain would use the best save, which is the ruin 4+.

[pretre]

I've been granting 4 plus to models behind terrain. I always do terrain pregame though.

[Guest]

I think the intention would be to say that models within 2" of walls are considered "in" the ruin. Regarding vehicles and ruins I think the intention is that vehicles would only get the 5+ cover if they were obscured by a distant ruin, but they would get the 4+ if actively using a nearby ruin for cover (and concealed 25%). Again, this increases to 4+ and 3+ respectively, should they have their facing concealed.

[Guest]

I've been granting 4 plus to models behind terrain. I always do terrain pregame though.

It is completely up to the players, but I do note that 4+ to models behind terrain would be modifying the rules in the BRB.

 

I will also note that the viability of certain rules does change depending on the ways you handle cover. For example, stealth and shrouded would make the normal difficult terrain 5+ into a 2+. By granting a stock 4+ on all cover saves, you are making units with stealth and shrouded worse, or rather, worse for their point value, as they are paying for upgrades they cannot use.

 

At present, a SM army could field Scouts and a Techmarine. The Techmarine can bolster normal difficult by +1. The scout marines with camoline cloaks could increase it another +1 for their saves. If the scouts include Telion, they gain stealth which increases it another +1. This is enough to make woods into a 2+ cover if using the normal woods are 5+ cover rules. If we make them 4+, the marine player may consider not fielding the techmarine, as his bolstering doesn't do anything.

[pretre]

Replace the word terrain in my post with ruins. I was unclear.

[Chapel]

I've always given a 4+ cover save if the enemies models are sheltered in or behind ruins, walls, or similar types of terrain. Hills and trees always a 5+, regardless if you are in the terrain or behind/obscured by it.

 

For what it's worth, I've never heard of someone pushing for different cover saves from the same piece of terrain. Ruins are listed as providing a 4+ cover save, so if something has to draw line of sight through the ruins, it seems natural that it would also grant a 4+ cover save, as it's the same type of cover. No idea if that's the intention, but I've never heard it argued against before. Furthermore, I'm not sure how it's played in Portland, but if this is the first time it's coming up, that would suggest to me that everyone else is playing it as a 4+ cover save as well. Same thing with vehicles, if they're obscured 25% or more by a ruin then they're granted a 4+ cover save.

 

I am curious how this is played in some of the major tournaments. Again, it seems as though it's counter intuitive to try to push for it to be different than that. Why cloud the rules up with oddity and inconsistency?

[AbusePuppy]

Hills and trees always a 5+, regardless if you are in the terrain or behind/obscured by it.

 

As a side note: Hills are a 4+ save. Have been since 5th edition.

[Guest]

As a side note: Hills are a 4+ save. Have been since 5th edition.

Page reference?

[Guest]

I've always given a 4+ cover save if the enemies models are sheltered in or behind ruins, walls, or similar types of terrain. Hills and trees always a 5+, regardless if you are in the terrain or behind/obscured by it.

 

For what it's worth, I've never heard of someone pushing for different cover saves from the same piece of terrain. Ruins are listed as providing a 4+ cover save, so if something has to draw line of sight through the ruins, it seems natural that it would also grant a 4+ cover save, as it's the same type of cover. No idea if that's the intention, but I've never heard it argued against before. Furthermore, I'm not sure how it's played in Portland, but if this is the first time it's coming up, that would suggest to me that everyone else is playing it as a 4+ cover save as well. Same thing with vehicles, if they're obscured 25% or more by a ruin then they're granted a 4+ cover save.

 

I am curious how this is played in some of the major tournaments. Again, it seems as though it's counter intuitive to try to push for it to be different than that. Why cloud the rules up with oddity and inconsistency?

Read the BRB quotes above. The book is pretty clear that a model must be standing in a ruin to obtain the 4+ ruin cover save.

 

I will note that despite the BRB, in portland Area terrain is very common. There are no rules for this, just players that enjoy the simplicity of not learning a new edition...I do this too, sometimes, way too many editions swirling in my head. Sometimes it's just easier to go with what players already think the rules are, than to explain them at the cost of time to play the game.

 

As for events, it's really up to the TO, and the TO often leaves it up to the players, so it boils down to what the players want to do. At this point, what the BRB says is irrelevant.

 

I will note that if a model is behind a ruin, they can still obtain a 4+ by going to ground, jinking, or having the facing of their vehicle completely concealed from the firer. I will also note that some terrain, specifically terrain bought by players, often has better than the listed cover save. The Aegis line, in example, has a 4+ cover which doesn't require models to be "in" it, just in cover behind it. I believe it is the intention of GW to make terrain bought as part of the army to be always superior to terrain scattered on the table.

[Chapel]

I don't believe that it boils down to players "enjoying the simplicity of not learning a new edition", but more to common sense.

You are the first and only person I've ever seen to suggest that a model must be "in" a ruin to gain a 4+ save, instead of getting a 5+ save for being "behind" the ruin.

This is similar to the forests rule (I know there isn't one, just one for Copse trees) and blocking LOS. Everyone I've ever played, gives 5+ cover for being in or behind the trees, regardless of how many actual tree models are on the base and what kind of LOS they block.

[Torg]

maybe this thread explains why I don't usually do LGS tourneys … 

[fluger]

As a side note: Hills are a 4+ save. Have been since 5th edition.

I'm not sure that's true anymore.  5+ unless otherwise stated, and hills are only mentioned in "open ground" in the terrain section.  

 

No where that I can find in the 7th edition rulebook does it state that hills offer anything other than 5+? 

[winterman]

Yeah in 6ed hills were clearly 4+ as they were part of the battlefield debris section.  7ed removed hills from that section, so they now default to 5+.  

 

They also removed the generic idea of 'area terrain', which is part of the problem with rules like ruins that say you get saves for being 'in', without defining what that actually means. 

 

As per usual though, I talk about terrain because everyone has their quirks on how they prefer to play it.

[fluger]

One of the things I'm working on for my home terrain is a quick dataslate of the various pieces I have so that they are clearly defined prior to gaming.

[Guest]

I don't believe that it boils down to players "enjoying the simplicity of not learning a new edition", but more to common sense.

You are the first and only person I've ever seen to suggest that a model must be "in" a ruin to gain a 4+ save, instead of getting a 5+ save for being "behind" the ruin.

This is similar to the forests rule (I know there isn't one, just one for Copse trees) and blocking LOS. Everyone I've ever played, gives 5+ cover for being in or behind the trees, regardless of how many actual tree models are on the base and what kind of LOS they block.

AbusePuppy posted the first quote in this thread saying models must be "in" a ruin. The BRB does define "in" on that same page.

 

Forests do have rules. They are listed as one of the terrain types covered in difficult terrain. The long list which includes them is quoted above. They are difficult terrain, which grants a cover save of 5+ to models 25% obscured.

 

Copse Trees is a specific terrain type with special rules.

 

As for me being the only one to suggest it, are you reading the rules? At the start of 7th, I mostly skimmed the new book. It's only now, when I get into a disagreement regarding the rules, that I go look them up. The 7th book is very clear on how cover works, most people don't seem to be interesting in using the rules in the BRB. I'm not really interested either, I just wanted to understand where the rules were that my opponent was using. I looked hard through the book only to find that no one seems to be using this edition's rules regarding cover...

[Guest]

They also removed the generic idea of 'area terrain', which is part of the problem with rules like ruins that say you get saves for being 'in', without defining what that actually means.

Page 108, Top left, main bold paragraph. Very clearly defined.

[Chapel]

As for me being the only one to suggest it, are you reading the rules? At the start of 7th, I mostly skimmed the new book. It's only now, when I get into a disagreement regarding the rules, that I go look them up. The 7th book is very clear on how cover works, most people don't seem to be interesting in using the rules in the BRB. I'm not really interested either, I just wanted to understand where the rules were that my opponent was using. I looked hard through the book only to find that no one seems to be using this edition's rules regarding cover...

 

 

I politely disagree, I think everyone is playing it as written and intended per example....

 

 

"When one of the following rules refers to a model being 'in cover behind' a piece of terrain, this means that the models is at least 25% obscured by the scenery, and therefore eligible for a cover save (pg37). On the other hand, when one of the following rules refers to a model being 'in' a piece terrain, this means that the model, or some part of it, is actually standing on the piece of scenery, whether it is obscured from view or not."

 

Did you look at the example on page 38 that you pointed out?

It very clearly points out that the orks obscured behind cover have a 4+ cover save because at least one firing model has his line of sight partially obscured by the ruin (pg. 108). The clarification on page 108 for ruins indicates that you don't need to be obscured by ruins to get a 4+ cover save if you are "in" the ruin. It does nothing to prevent the 4+ (not 5+) cover save if you are behind the ruin and partially obscured by that ruin.

[Guest]

Page 37 in the quote, then you say page 38 that I pointed out?

[Guest]

Anyway, yeah, both "examples" in those boxes, the one on page 37 and the one on page 77 for vehicles most certainly imply alternate rules. That said, the rules for the ruins are on page 108, which clearly defines them. Page 77's rules clearly explain the rules too.

 

You are correct that neither pictured example reflects these rules. On a side note, I believe both pictured examples are copied and pasted from the 6th book with no changes, despite dramatic changes in actual rules. I think it is an error via GW, though them having inaccurate examples isn't exactly a new feature of Games Workshop rules...

 

In the quote above, the page 37 reference is at the "cover save rule" not the example box.

 

I said the rules are perfectly clear. I agree, the pictures make it murky.