Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Double checking, can the tech priest dominus be attached to a unit for this formation? Or is the idea that he drops solo? I've read it a few times. Seems pretty clear that he drops independently of the breacher units, so if he is attached, it would be to a unit other than the breachers. Could you attach the tech priest dominus to, say, a terminator squad? They should all have deep strike, but I'm not sure if it messes with the formation rules regarding them all DSing on one roll. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I don't believe that he can start attached to the Breachers, as the rules for how the units have to DS prevent it, but I think he could start attached to something else. Also, note that it would be possible for him to join a unit of Breachers (or anything else) if he arrives within 2" of them, as per the normal rules for joining ICs to units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I don't believe that he can start attached to the Breachers, as the rules for how the units have to DS prevent it, but I think he could start attached to something else. Also, note that it would be possible for him to join a unit of Breachers (or anything else) if he arrives within 2" of them, as per the normal rules for joining ICs to units. But can he join a unit of breachers from this formation? I mean, he is placed first, so he can't move within 2" of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 But can he join a unit of breachers from this formation? I mean, he is placed first, so he can't move within 2" of them. Movement itself doesn't matter, you check at the end of the movement phase. If within 2" he is joined to them period, wouldn't be able to refuse it by the rules... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 Movement itself doesn't matter, you check at the end of the movement phase. If within 2" he is joined to them period, wouldn't be able to refuse it by the rules... I'm glad you understand them. I'm re-reading the IC rules on page 166 and I'm just confused. It starts out with the IC having to join a unit in "their" movement phase, but within the same paragraph, it changes to "the" movement phase. It seems to be clear that the IC can declare which unit is has joined at the end of the movement phase, but at the same time, there are several references to the joined unit and IC being unable to continue moving after they join. Super confusing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 12, 2015 Report Share Posted June 12, 2015 I will admit I do just kinda absorb the rule... I'll reread the passage soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 I don't think the "after the IC joins" clauses have any meaning, as the only time you can join a unit is at the end of the movement phase- it sometimes says "their movement phase," but since individual units do not have separate movement phases, the distinction is irrelevant. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 13, 2015 Report Share Posted June 13, 2015 individual units do not have separate movement phases Did they remove this language from 40k? There used to be a distinction between the model's movement phase and the player's movement phase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 So re-reading the IC rules again and I'm really unclear if the IC is a unit of his own....? I did find a line in the 4th paragraph of "joining and leaving a unit" which says "...he again becomes a unit of one model.." but is actually the first time it mentions ICs being a unit of one model anywhere in that special rule. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VonVilkee Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 I never noticed the nuance of this as I always checked where the IC could get to then moved the unit in around him to ensure proper wrapping etc... I think I was doing that to avoid any difficulty in the unit moving after the joining. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 IC rules are pretty clear that they won't confer any special rules to the joined unit. So now we've got a potential issue regarding the "Apparition Extremis" special rule granted as part of the formation. As written, I think I can join another unit only after the deep strike, as it's very clear that the entire formation roll reserves together.as one. At no point in the wording does it seem like I could roll attach the IC to another unit prior arrival, as he wouldn't be part of the formation's unit if he were attached to another unit. The "Inhuman Avarice" rule looks like it would confer to ICs from other detachments that joined them, as Zealot and counter attack are worded to only require a single model in the unit having it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 CounterAttack is an odd one. It still takes effect in a mixed Unit, but only the Models that actually have the Rule get the benefit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 14, 2015 Report Share Posted June 14, 2015 Also, Formations are only restrictions on how you purchase your Army, unless there's an implicit (like the requirement here that they Deep Strike separately) or explicit restriction on what you do with them after that. From the time you start the pre-battle sequence, they're just part of your Army, and subject to the usual Rules (Levels of Alliance or whatever), but otherwise interact with the rest of your Army normally. Now, the Rules may not strictly speaking transfer to an IC, but sometimes this doesn't matter. It is important that an IC you want to attach has Deep Strike already, because the Unit is required to Deep Strike, and that doesn't transfer. However, even tho the "no scatter" part doesn't specifically transfer to an attached IC, it doesn't really matter, because the Unit lands like that, and then the IC is just placed in base contact as normal. When GW really wants a rule like this to not transfer, the usually use phrasing like "A Unit composed entirely of Models with..." or something similar. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AbusePuppy Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 It's worth noting that the rules for the formation specify how the units in it must be deployed, though- it never explicitly says that they can (or can't) join other units, but the implications of what it does require mean that many things are presumed to be impossible. For example, if the Dominus is joined to a unit, you can't make a reserve roll for him (and the rest of the formation) because his reserve roll has to be made along with the unit he is joined to. The wording seems to allow other characters to join the Breacher units, but the Dominus joining other units feels rather dicey to me. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Exactly. Anything that would prevent you from doing something the Formation requires you to do is disallowed, but if it doesn't interfere with the required actions of the Units in the Formation, it's fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 The wording seems to allow other characters to join the Breacher units, but the Dominus joining other units feels rather dicey to me. That was my conclusion above. Glad we agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 When GW really wants a rule like this to not transfer, the usually use phrasing like "A Unit composed entirely of Models with..." or something similar. Can I get an example from a 7th ed codex? BRB seems pretty clear that special rules don't transfer unless worded like, "a unit containing at least 1 model with this special rule..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Fleet is a pretty good example. The White Scars Chapter Tactic also includes a bonus that only applies to Units entirely composed of White Scars Models, as well as other bonuses that will function in mixed Units. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Now, the Rules may not strictly speaking transfer to an IC, but sometimes this doesn't matter. It is important that an IC you want to attach has Deep Strike already, because the Unit is required to Deep Strike, and that doesn't transfer. However, even tho the "no scatter" part doesn't specifically transfer to an attached IC, it doesn't really matter, because the Unit lands like that, and then the IC is just placed in base contact as normal. When GW really wants a rule like this to not transfer, the usually use phrasing like "A Unit composed entirely of Models with..." or something similar. Can I get an example from a 7th ed codex? BRB seems pretty clear that special rules don't transfer unless worded like, "a unit containing at least 1 model with this special rule..." Fleet is a pretty good example. The White Scars Chapter Tactic also includes a bonus that only applies to Units entirely composed of White Scars Models, as well as other bonuses that will function in mixed Units. We are talking about examples of special rules that DO transfer to joined ICs, but are NOT worded like stubborn, right? Fleet in the BRB starts out with, "A unit composed entirely of models with this special rule...." If a unit or the joined IC lacks fleet, they both lose fleet as per the fleet rule. Pretty sure the new SM codex is removing the bit that would allow chapter tactics to transfer. The current (old) SM codex is a 6th ed codex. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 OK, I misread what you were asking for. I was providing an example of when they were explicit that it didn't transfer. Probably going to have to wait til I get home to dig something out. That bit in the White Scars Chapter Tactic is what really confuses me about Chapter Tactics. It's clear that they lose the Chapter Tactic abilities if they're mixed with Marines with a different Chapter Tactic, but they seem not to lose them when mixed with non-SM Units, based on that part. The other two abilities granted by their Chapter Tactic just say "White Scars Models with Chapter Tactics..." like all the other Chapter abilities, but that one specifies a Unit consisting only of White Scars, which strongly implies that the other two abilities still function in a Unit not entirely composed of White Scars. Fluff-wise, that whole thing about the Chapter Tactics not mixing is weird to me. I mean, yeah, some of them I can see, Ultramarines Bikers aren't as skilled, and shouldn't pick up Skilled Rider just because they're hanging with Khan, or that Imperial Fists can't hide as well as Raven Guard even if they are hanging together, but it's weird that Salamanders temporarily lose their genetic resistance to fire, or Iron Hands Bionics stop being as durable, just because there's also a Crimson Fist Joined to them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Fluff-wise, that whole thing about the Chapter Tactics not mixing is weird to me. I mean, yeah, some of them I can see, Ultramarines Bikers aren't as skilled, and shouldn't pick up Skilled Rider just because they're hanging with Khan, or that Imperial Fists can't hide as well as Raven Guard even if they are hanging together, but it's weird that Salamanders temporarily lose their genetic resistance to fire, or Iron Hands Bionics stop being as durable, just because there's also a Crimson Fist Joined to them. I've always thought it was more an issue of the chapters really not getting along and certainly wanting to conceal their genetic differences (remember, genetic differences means a corrupt geneseed, which means the death of the chapter by the inquisition). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 How do you conceal the fact that you're not getting burned? Do the Salamanders roll around screaming in fake pain and then lie there playing dead until the Ultramarine Librarian leaves? Everyone already knows the Iron Hands all have Bionics, why would they hide that? Anyhow, I realized I'm not going to be able to give you the examples you wanted, because they are by their nature never explicitly stated. It's the existence of Rules like Fleet, that say "Units entirely composed of Models with..." that implies the way the others work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
generalripphook Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Oh [big bad swear word] that ultramarine is coming over. Start shooting worse guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted June 15, 2015 Report Share Posted June 15, 2015 Anyhow, I realized I'm not going to be able to give you the examples you wanted, because they are by their nature never explicitly stated. It's the existence of Rules like Fleet, that say "Units entirely composed of Models with..." that implies the way the others work. I would be agreeing with you if not for the BRB specifically saying otherwise and even using that stubborn example. If you want to hunt for it, I found this cool list of codex by edition. http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Codices_%28List%29#5th_Edition I'll look too. I don't mind being wrong on this one, but I really do want a clear understanding on why I'm wrong. How do you conceal the fact that you're not getting burned? Do the Salamanders roll around screaming in fake pain and then lie there playing dead until the Ultramarine Librarian leaves? Everyone already knows the Iron Hands all have Bionics, why would they hide that? Love this. I know the SW would lose their acute senses if the DA were there. DA would have their thick, holy "incense" burning all the time and the SW wouldn't be able to smell anything else. DA are the GREEN army....lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WestRider Posted June 16, 2015 Report Share Posted June 16, 2015 Neither of us is actually wrong. This is one of those weird gaps that shows up because GW doesn't understand the Rules they write, and there are multiple reasonable interpretations, and if you haven't gotten where I'm coming from with what I've said about it so far, I'm not going to be able to explain it, because I've run out of explanations. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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