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Help my lazy a$$ build a Tau army to kill Eldar


McNathanson

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Hey guys, I have this stupid Grey Knights army that is fully painted and cool and stuff except the only person I play (ever) is my buddy and his "I beat GK all the time no matter what" Eldar.  He's a good player and I play once a year, granted, but even when I outplay him (by his own admission) I lose, just not by as much.

 

So that being said, I am thinking of selling my Grey Knights and building a Tau army instead... I had Tau before and sold them to buy my Grey Knights, but that's okay because they weren't painted :P  But the point is I've always thought they look awesome.  And what kind of jerk doesn't like the Greater Good?!

 

Anyway, given that I don't want Kroot or Vespids, can someone propose a solid Tau army?  A few other optional criteria that would be nice if possible (but most important is that it's tough and can kill stupid Eldar and their walk-run-shoot-win cheating selves):

 

1) Fewer models is better than more models purely for $$ and time to build/paint sake

2) Large models are easier than smaller models since I have an airbrush

3) I like the Firewarriors (rifles or carbines, both look awesome), Pathfinders, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerheads, Pirahna, Riptide/Ghostkeel/Stormsurge etc models. the best; the planes and tanks (outside of Railgun Hammerhead) are fine, but not as cool to me as the others... basically, I like the small/med/large/xlarge robot guys :)

 

Since I don't play more than once or twice yearly I have zero hope of playtesting and building a good army myself, so I'm counting on you, my Ordo 40k experts, to do me proud.

 

Thanks a million for lending me your expertise!!

Nathan

 

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It's MSU, hits most of the units you like, and Jeremy lays out how it works.  It's not point and click though, you're going to have to master target priority and deployment (well, that's always true...) to maximize your efforts, but the undercarriage of the list and the dex are going to help you out a lot.  

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Hey guys, I have this stupid Grey Knights army that is fully painted and cool and stuff except the only person I play (ever) is my buddy and his "I beat GK all the time no matter what" Eldar.  He's a good player and I play once a year, granted, but even when I outplay him (by his own admission) I lose, just not by as much.

 

So that being said, I am thinking of selling my Grey Knights and building a Tau army instead... I had Tau before and sold them to buy my Grey Knights, but that's okay because they weren't painted :P  But the point is I've always thought they look awesome.  And what kind of jerk doesn't like the Greater Good?!

 

Anyway, given that I don't want Kroot or Vespids, can someone propose a solid Tau army?  A few other optional criteria that would be nice if possible (but most important is that it's tough and can kill stupid Eldar and their walk-run-shoot-win cheating selves):

 

1) Fewer models is better than more models purely for $$ and time to build/paint sake

2) Large models are easier than smaller models since I have an airbrush

3) I like the Firewarriors (rifles or carbines, both look awesome), Pathfinders, Stealth Suits, Crisis Suits, Broadsides, Hammerheads, Pirahna, Riptide/Ghostkeel/Stormsurge etc models. the best; the planes and tanks (outside of Railgun Hammerhead) are fine, but not as cool to me as the others... basically, I like the small/med/large/xlarge robot guys :)

 

Since I don't play more than once or twice yearly I have zero hope of playtesting and building a good army myself, so I'm counting on you, my Ordo 40k experts, to do me proud.

 

Thanks a million for lending me your expertise!!

 

Nathan

No Stingwings?

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@fluger:  Thanks man, I read the post you linked and the responses... looks like one thing I'll need is something(s) to kill his WraithKnight(s).  I'll look for that post by MikhailLenin!

 

@abusepuppy:  Let's see, in past games it's mostly consisted of Eldar Wave Serpents with Guardians, and then a squad each of Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, Striking Scorpions, Scouts, and maybe 3 or 6 War Walkers, plus that flyer that can move laterally (turn, move, turn), and the WK.  

 

My GKs are usually pretty CC heavy, with Paladins or Terminators, a squad of GKs, Interceptors, a Storm Raven, and one or two DreadKnights (my MVPs, always).

 

He's too mobile for me to catch and outguns me pretty badly... I usually get one good hit in when I DS, then I chase him around getting shot at.  Only my Interceptors and DKs can catch him, and they aren't enough.

 

We've swapped armies and I handled him as easily as vice versa.  We even played a 500+ point advantage (can't recall exactly) for the GKs and they still lost.

 

Maybe there's something I'm doing wrong with the GKs, but they just seem too slow and too expensive!  But I'm by no means a 40k player... WFB was always my game :)

 

@LH: no, Vespids just look dumb to me :)

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Alright, so here's the deal with Eldar: Wave Serpents are mediocre and Guardians are really only good against Terminators and MCs. Hawks, Spiders, and Scorpions are all pretty decent-to-good, ditto War Walkers. The real problem is the Wraithknight, because that guy is bananas as I'm sure you've seen. So any army you're gonna build is going to need to be able to handle the WK first and foremost, with the rest of your stuff being there to clean up the other stuff.

 

GK in Power Armor (i.e. Strikes and Interceptors) are, sadly, very mediocre- substituting other stuff for them is going to help your list a lot. The Stormraven, although a good unit in the general sense, does not mesh particularly well with the rest of the army and could probably serve to be replaced- although this isn't an absolute, as there are ways you could make use of it.

 

Killing a Wraithknight is probably best achieved by Grav weapons- Centurion Devastators, Devastators, or Bike squads are your three best options in this regard, although you could also potentially use Kataphron Destroyers as well. As a backup plan, Dreadknights can also work, especially if you activate Force on their weapon and reduce the Wraithknight's initiative somehow (Stasis Grenade, Hallucination psychic power, forcing it to charge into cover, etc.)

 

Do you have a preference for any of the above units over the others? What point values do you typically play at?

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@LH: no, Vespids just look dumb to me :)

Hehehe.  Well that was mostly a joke.  As some people know on this board, i own 27 of them and no one seems to like them so I am kind of the lone voice in the wilderness on that issue.  And to be fair many other issues.

 

I knew not one person here would ever advocate them which, of course, is the joke n me whining that I cant suggest a list with them..

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Hunter Cadre (12" Supporting Fire; and those within 12" of the Commander OR Fireblade can run and then shoot in that order)

 

370pts KV128 StormSurge (Airbursting Fragmentation Launcher, Early Warning Override)

 

84pts   Sniper Drone Team (3 Firesight Marksman, 3 Sniper Drones)

 

66pts   6 Breachers (EMP Grenades)

 

89pts   7 Breachers (MV36 Guardian Drone, EMP Grenades)

 

89pts   7 Breachers (MV36 Guardian Drone, EMP Grenades)

 

140 XV95 Ghostkeel (TL Fusion Blasters)

 

280 2x XV95 Ghostkeels (TL Fusion Blasters)

 

212pts 4x XV8 Crisis Battlesuits (TL Fusion+Flamer, 2 x Shield Drone)

 

177pts XV8-02 Crisis Irridium Commander (Onager Gauntlet, Comm and And Controle Node, Drone Controller, Stim Injector, 2 Marker Drones )

 

84pts   Cadre Fireblade (2 Marker Drones)

 

84pts   6 Marker Drones

 

82pts   4 Pathfinders (3 x Rail Rifles, EMP Grenades)

80pts   TY7 Devilfish

 

82pts   4 Pathfinders (3 x Rail Rifles, EMP Grenades)

80pts   TY7 Devilfish

 

1999

 

 

Explanation:

The StormSurge is a prolific and sturdy killer, but it needs someone to guard against backfield threats the Eldar might bring.  Freed of this concern, it will wreak havoc.  Wraithguard strike me as a very real threat if placed in a Wave Serpent… 

 

But such a Wave Serpent can be eliminated wholesale with Breachers, its Serpent surrounded and killed with EMP if not shot dead with other firepower.

 

The Breachers are ideal line defense units.  Their short range will never matter, as they are there to defend against close quarters Eldar threats to the StormSurge and those will be few enough in number  They can be reserved if that is called for or deployed if the enemy has reach and seems likely to use it.  Their armor is far superior to any other "bubble" wrap you could select for the same points and they will do work if anyone tries them.  A Hunter Cadre being charged has a very nasty bite nd when that bite includes twin linked Markerlights...

 

To maximize fire, you need two or three Markerlight sources.  We give you the Sniper Drone unit which is tougher than Pathfinders, has stealth, and is highly accurate.  In addition the Cadre Fireblade will add his Markerlights to his Breacher bodyguard.  We also have the markerdrone swarm itself which can be used as a highly mobile platform to fire Marker Lights that never miss from, and they are tougher in every way than Pathfinders.  With the Buff Commander, they will never miss and his armor will protect them from attrition nicely.  The Markerlights In the force should be adequate for deleting targets quickly. 

 

The Commander is also armed with the Donkey Fist, with which to smite fiercely if the unfortunate situation should befall him in which it becomes necessary. 

 

This should eliminate the Scatterbike cover saves, while the Stormsurge, Ghostkeels, Crisis teams and outflanking Pathfinders will finish the work you have started.  If Scatterbikes are removed early, the Eldar threat is substantially reduced.

 

Should the enemy bring the dread Wraith Knight, your Blacksun filters will deal with its shield effect if it has one, and you will perforate it with copious amounts of AP 3+ fireower.  There is no guarantee it will be enough if he has the shield but it will give you a very good chance of annihilating one since nothing in your army lacks the strength to affect it.

 

Knowing nothing about your opponent, this was my first effort.

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Well obviously.  but then it has no stingwings.  Nothings perfect.

 

 

EDIT and that was tongue in cheek obviously.

 

BTW, NtK, as a qualifier, I do play Tau a ton and have been very successful with them for what its worth.  But these units are SO new that i am giving you advice that draws on that pool of experience and not game play with these particular units.  So while I think this list played skillfully will give you what you want, I in fact have not practiced with them enough to say it with certainty, nor has anyone else here I imagine.

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This is great stuff, and gets me a lot closer to understanding what kind of army I can think about fielding.

 

Lord Hanaur, thanks a lot for the time and knowledge poured into that post, very, very helpful.

 

AbusePuppy, thank you for the advice on GKs, I'll think about how I might tweak them.  But you know how it is when you get excited about a new army, it's pretty hard to put the idea back down :)  So that said, would you care to take a shot at a build and general battle plan?  I would love to have a few opinions to look over and glean from!!

Thanks again guys, I bought the codex and will spend a little time reading it and circle back with some ideas based off LH (and potentially APs) suggestions.  Oh and I still need to look for the list suggested by ML that fluger cited!

So fun.  Now if I just didn't have to assemble frikkin' models.  Maybe someone in the area who is good and clean assembly and cool poses would take $$ to build them for me??  Anyone interested?

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AbusePuppy, thank you for the advice on GKs, I'll think about how I might tweak them.  But you know how it is when you get excited about a new army, it's pretty hard to put the idea back down :)  So that said, would you care to take a shot at a build and general battle plan?  I would love to have a few opinions to look over and glean from!!

 

Thanks again guys, I bought the codex and will spend a little time reading it and circle back with some ideas based off LH (and potentially APs) suggestions.  Oh and I still need to look for the list suggested by ML that fluger cited!

 

So fun.  Now if I just didn't have to assemble frikkin' models.  Maybe someone in the area who is good and clean assembly and cool poses would take $$ to build them for me??  Anyone interested?

 

Well hey, don't let me steer you away from space fish-horse communists- personally, I love 'em. Just don't go into the army assuming it will be some sort of autowin against Eldar or anything, because it definitely isn't.

 

The new Tau book is pretty similar to the old Tau book, even counting the formations- things that were good before still are, things that were bad before still are, etc. So you'll probably be basing your army around a core of Broadsides, Crisis, Kroot, and likely a Commander and Riptide. Other units can be added to taste, but those are a lot of the basic "good" stuff to work from. The army that MikhailLenin wrote is certainly a good one, although a lot of its strength is nested in unit and rules interactions that may not be obvious at first glance- it's gonna have a steep learning curve.

 

(Incidentally, if you are looking for some models already assembled, I'm looking to pass off some Crisis and Fire Warriors- and possibly Pathfinders- so I can grab some new boxes of them, so feel free to PM me and we can arrange something.)

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I realize I'm continuing to be lazy but hey if people are willing to help... what's up with Army Builder? It seems to show some of the new units (e.g. Stormsurage) but not all of them (e.g. no Optimised Stealth Cadre).  I may be doing something wrong w.r.t. formations as I've never used them before now in Army Builder.  Is there something I'm missing, or is the current datafile incomplete?

Thanks!!
Nathan

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So I've got a first cut at a ~2000 point list, but I'm not quite able to fit everything I want.  Here's where I'm at, please let me know what you would change!  Bear in mind I have NO idea about meta or matchups or even what is in other Codices.  I just based this off reading other lists and looking at the Tau rules, plus trying to fit in a few of my favorite Grey Knight models as allies to give me a tiny bit of CC:

 

Hunter Cadre - 969pts

(Supporting Fire within 12"; Units within 12" of Commander or Fireblade at start of shooting phase can Run and then immediately Shoot)

- Basically here I'm going for the nearly-bare-minimum to get the Riptide and Stormsurge, plus markerlights to support them.

 

Commander (Stim, Drone Ctrl, C&C Node, 2x Markers) - 147pts

- Seems like a pretty standard "Buff-mander", and I can see why 2 BS5 marker lights re-rolling misses is pretty awesome.

 

3x 5 Strike Team w/ Shas'ui and MV36 Guardian Drone - 67pts x3

- I can definitely see dropping the Shas'ui and Drone from the Strike teams because at min size that's a lot of points to invest in protection that would be a lot more efficient in a larger unit.  On the other hand I'd actually prefer to up all 3 teams to size 9, because I like the look of more infantry.

 

1 Riptide - 180pts

- This guy seems too awesome to pass on and since my Stealth Suits and Ghostkeels are in a separate Cadre, it's this guy or the Crisis Suits.

 

4 Marker Drones - 56 points

- Can my Commander join this unit and have 6 Marker Drones using his BS etc.?  Or will I want to be able to Marker 2 different units?

- Should I invest in a Guardian Drone for the whole unit?

 

1 Stormsurge w/ Pulse Driver Cannon, TL SMS, Cluster Rocket System, 4x Destroyer Missiles, TL AFP, and Early Warning Override - 385 points

- Holy Beast.  This guy's just insane when he drops his stabilizers and shoots twice!!

 

Optimized Stealth Cadre - 610pts

(At start of shooting phase, can network stealth so that Ghostkeels, and any Stealth Suit within 6" of Ghostkeel, have Ignore Cover, +1 BS, and hit rear armor)

- This is the most Ghostkeels I can get for the points spent, cuz they are awesome looking!

 

2x 3 Stealth Battlesuits w/ Burst Cannons - 90 pts x2

- Min required

 

3 Ghostkeel w/ Cyclic Ion Raker and TL Fusion Blaster, 2 w/ Target Lock - 430pts

- I feel like putting 3 in one unit is better than splitting them up... at this size they get +1 BS for a unit of 3 MC, and also +1 BS for Cadre power, meaning they're already BS 5 with their CIRs and ignoring cover before adding Markerlights.  So in general I expect the Hunter Cadre will use the Marker, and these guys will be able to handle their own.  Big question is whether the Countermeasures can be used 3x (once for each model) or 1x (once for the whole unit).

 

That puts me at 1579 points.

 

I'd also love to be able to include my custom Forgeworld Nemesis Dreadknight, and the beautiful Grey Knight Terminators I have, but I'm over points:

 

Nemesis Strike Force - 450 

(roll for Deep Striking units to arrive starting turn 1)

 

GK Librarian - 110pts

- cheapest HQ outside of a techmarine

 

5 GK Terminators w/ Halberds - 175pts

- probably a waste of points but then again so are Grey Knight Strike Force...

 

1 Nemesis Dreadknight w/ Personal Teleporter and Daemonhammer - 165pts

- This guy is a CC stud and gets around the battlefield to help out wherever Assault units might be threatening my Tau

 

I'm 29 points over 2000 with the above.  I already dislike how small my Strike teams are.  The simplest way to get under points is definitely to drop the Shas'ui and Guardian Drones, which gets me back 66 points, and I could even up the size of my Strike teams a tiny bit, or get Iridium on the Commander.   I'm unclear whether the Strike Teams, Terminators, and Stealth Teams are going to be sufficient for objectives... I haven't played nearly enough to have a clue.  But the Kill Power on this list seems pretty insane, and they're highly mobile.

 

Anyway, that's about all the thinking I have... please bring on the suggestions, I won't have my feelings hurt!  I do LOVE the small model count and with an airbrush and some tips on how to paint all the "creases" in the armor I think I could actually get this army painted in a reasonable amount of time.

Thanks again for the help guys, sincerely appreciated!!

Nathan

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I would definitely dump the Shas'uis and Guardian Drones- at the end of the day, neither of them are really doing much. Generally speaking I prefer Kroot for minimized troop units, but with the new book Fire Warriors do gain some significant advantages- in particular, adding a missile turret to each of those units would help them contribute a lot better, as those two S7 shots are nothing to sneeze at. Remember that the Turret fires as though it were part of the squad but cannot be shot or destroyed by normal means, so you can stick it out in the open and the rest of the guys behind cover and there's little the enemy can do.

 

I think three Ghostkeels is overkill in the OpStealth. +1BS is nice, but you're already BS4 all the time anyways and if you Coordinate Fire you're BS5- going up to BS6 isn't really going to help you any more. If you find some points laying around, single Fusions on the Stealth teams might be nice, but hardly mandatory.

 

Riptide should have Ion Accelerator and Early Warning Override, they're pretty much mandatory inclusions. The Heavy Burst Cannon isn't actually awful, but needing to Nova Charge every turn to get real use out of it is kinda inconvenient (and also you have tons of other S5-7 shots to hammer things with already.)

 

Commander wants Multispectrum Sensor and Puretide Engram Neurochip if you want him playing a support role; Iridium Armor is also very nice, but it's possible to slip by without it.

 

If you want to save points on the mandatory slots in the Cadre, one trick I often use is running a unit of Crisis + Marker Drones and attach the Commander to them (essentially taking the spot of the Riptide) and then run a Piranha for your "Fast Attack" unit. Note that the Piranha functionally counts as two units for stacking up bonuses from Coordinated Fire, as it and its Drones are separate squads.

 

If you can sneak out a few points, Advanced Targeting System (Precision Shots) on the Stormsurge is good times.

 

Rather than Halberds (which aren't terrible, but aren't mandatory) I would give the Terminator unit a Psycannon and, ideally, a Daemonhammer.

 

Heavy Incinerator + Heavy Psycannon + Greatsword is a really strong loadout for the Dreadknight. I don't personally favor the Teleporter, since you can Deep Strike anyways and will probably be using him defensively, but if you could scrape up points it wouldn't be a bad option.

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Awesome, awesome feedback!  Thank you!!

 

I can make the changes on the Firewarriors, but it only gets me back about 30 pts under 2k, which means I have to cut to get any of the things you suggested.  My first question is why is 3 Ghostkeels overkill, because I don't want to have to shoot my whole army at a single target unit to get BS5... or is that the argument about Coordinated Fire, people suggesting that you can Target Lock to a different target but still get the CF +1 BS bonus?

 

Riptide, yes I don't know why I didn't have the EWO on there, oversight... thanks.  Will change to Ion weapon too!

 

The Terminators can definitely go Psycannon/DH, I was just trying to use as few points as possible and trying to imagine what their role would be... seems to me that if their primary use is to fight assault units that get to my lines, the Halberds are pretty good choice.  

The ranged weapons on the Dreadknight are so expensive!  I don't know if I should invest more points in more shooting on a model that can't join the Tau fun... but if I can find a good sword conversion for my model, I'd definitely switch to the sword over the hammer.  Regarding adding shooting wpns, vs. the Teleporter, in the end I think I prefer the mobility over the shooting again because his role is to protect my Tau from deep striking assault units and other stuff that gets on to my lines, and that teleporter makes him so much better at getting into CC.  But as a standalone model I agree the ranged weapons are worth it... in my GK army, both DKs carry a full loadout (mostly because all the rest of the army is irrelevant, hah!)

 

I'll make the Firewarrior, Riptide and Commander changes and see if I can eek out the points from elsewhere without dropping the 3rd Ghostkeel... however if the Coordinated Fire rules let them easily get BS5 and still shoot other targets, then the 3rd Ghostkeel isn't nearly as important...

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Three Ghostkeels is overkill because it makes the squad an easy assault target (due to huge footprint and points investment) while not really increasing your firepower as much as you'd think (you're still limited by weapon range.) "Just" two of them is still a 300pt unit with twelve wounds and 14-20 shots; with BS4/5 and Ignores Cover, that should easily be enough to vaporize most targets. As for having to shoot your whole army at one target- you don't. That's the point of having cheap units like the Piranha and Strike teams; they add a bit of firepower and fill mandatory slots, but also allow you to easily build up to the +1BS bonus. (For example, you could shoot a Piranha, its Drones, and the Ghostkeels at a unit and benefit from +1BS for a pretty minimal cost.)

 

The issue with Halberds isn't the weapons themselves; +1Str is nothing to sneeze at. But for fighting generic troops, you can already get +2Str from Hammerhand, which against anything T4 or less makes the Halberd bonus redundant. That doesn't mean it's useless- it helps against Bikes, vehicles, MCs, etc- but you typically have other priorities, and that S8/10 Daemonhammer will put the fear into most things. Hint: don't give it to the Justicar, because other guys get just as many attacks and can't be challenged.

 

The Incinerator on a DK is actually really cheap- S6 torrent is a really strong profile, believe me. The Psycannon is more arguable when you've got Tau around, but look at it this way: it gives you a Large Blast (something Tau don't get a lot of) and is essentially three Missile Pods on a BS4 platform- you'd normally pay at LEAST 50pts for that privilege, so on the DK it's a bit of a steal. As for the Teleporter: like I said, it's not a bad option to have, but it's not cheap, either. But when you're using the DK as a defensive tool- that is, forcing the enemy to come to you- he doesn't need the mobility as much because you're basically just gonna be hanging out near the Tau and kicking down any bullies that try to steal their lunch money.

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